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Hi Theo F.
I will consult with Hugh B. and Philip D.
and see about adding your new web-site to
www.shavian.org.
Sorry for the delay.
Regards, Paul V.
________________attached_________________________

F Am /TIadP /k /fiS, H Ival twin bruHD v /lFanal /fiS,
a fQndiN membD v /k /E /o /s.
F hav dIsFdad t kum bAk frum H dRk sFd
Yl HO mF rizYlv pCIodiKlI wIkanz.
F Am briNiN bAk H /SEvWn /Alfabet /AntI-terDist /frunt,
a bunc v Jentalman pAmflitCz dedikEtid t teliN H wxld
Yl abQt
H /SEvWn Alfabet, weHD H wxld iz redI fP it P not.
wI hAv Just mEd a nV web sFt kYld
"www.newenglishalphabets.com"
F prE V wil pOst a liNk t us?

konsxnd, /TIadP /fiS

On 10/21/07, paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
> Hi Theo F.
> I will consult with Hugh B. and Philip D.
> and see about adding your new web-site to
> www.shavian.org.

I've added a link to www.shavian.org.


Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

Hi Philip N.
Apologies for referring to you as Philip D.
I won't make that mistake again.
(* F must hAv kynfVzd V wiT H AmbigVasli Absant *)
(* daSep. hI sIms t hAv gytan Qt v tuch. *)
Regards and thanx, Paul V.
_______________attached_______________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Newton"
<philip.newton@...> wrote:
>
> On 10/21/07, paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
> > Hi Theo F.
> > I will consult with Hugh B. and Philip D.
> > and see about adding your new web-site to
> > www.shavian.org.
>
> I've added a link to www.shavian.org.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
>

Maybe you were thinking of me. I developed several
fonts for the Shaw Alphabet some years ago.

--Phil D.


----- Original Message -----
From: paul vandenbrink

Hi Philip N.
Apologies for referring to you as Philip D.
I won't make that mistake again.
(* F must hAv kynfVzd V wiT H AmbigVasli Absant *)
(* daSep. hI sIms t hAv gytan Qt v tuch. *)
Regards and thanx, Paul V.

Hi Paul,

Those are some good ideas. I'd like to see how you'd set up all 48 letter in the Shavian, into that 5 level format. I guess people today are more spoiled than I was. When I learned Shavian I had to print off a copy of what the letters look like and represented soundwise, from www.omniglot.com. And learn the letter at the same time as how to write/draw (handwrite) them. I had to wade through all the nuances of each letter and how they all work together to write English phonemically.
I like to idea of teaching Shavian by levels (i.e. from most important letters to least important letters.) I think it is a more effective than the way I originally taught myself Shavian 5 years ago when I was 21years old.

I agree, Paul, that all 48 Shaw letters are distinct phonetic sounds. I only use the term ligature in the visual sense of each letter.

I'm very curious on how one could teach Shavian in 5 levels (i.e. what does the list of letters look like) I also like your idea of pairing the letters up. So, Paul, when you send your reply, could you, please include a list of letters in the 5 level format.

Best of Regards,

Carl (Shavian Enthusiast)

paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
Hi Carl and Yahya

I like the idea of Teaching Shavian in 5 levels, especially if we
are introducing the letters through typing rather than drawing.
I think by giving students a Shaw font, and letting them see the
letters right away, it gives them a Jump-start on learning the Shae
Alphabet. Hand Writing should come later.

I think these 8 letter pairs make a good size bite.
> > p,b
> > f,v
> > t,d
> > k,g
> > s,z
> > m,n
> > l,r
> > h,w

They are very common consonant sounds in English. They also include
Tall, Short and Deep letters, which is important to teach right
upfront. It is also useful to use them to show how Consonont
clusters work.

I would also like to get away from calling these composite sounds
ligatures. They all are actually single distinct sounds,
that I would
tend to include in with the other simple Vowel Letters.
For example, I use the Letter Yew to also represent the Dipthong
"ew" in words such as new, few, cute, fuel and skew.

And I note in the pronunciation key of www.dictionary.com
they find it necessary to distnguish the 4 r-based vowel sounds.
[air] air, careful, wear
[eer] ear, hero, beer
[er] teacher, afterward, murderer
[ur] early, bird, stirring
I guess [or} isn't common in American pronunciation as people say
saw-ree instead of sore-ee (Sorry about that)

Just because Diagraphs were the only practical way of writing these
r-based vowel sounds in the Roman Alphabet,
doesn't mean we should buy into
the fallacy, that they are really in fact 2 distinct sounds written
togather
strictly because they are common juxtapositions.
I consider them to distinct sounds, no different in principle than
the five common English Dipthongs (Ai, Ei, Oi, Ow, Ew)

So what do you think, Carl

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Yahya,
I would include Yew with the Dipthongs, myself, albeit an
exceptional one..

P.P.S. There is a nice description of the current
Northern British English Vowels at
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/johnm/flash/nevkey.htm
Along with a neat interactive quiz where you click on the
correct vowel for each sample word. Note that some of these
vowels are only found with a followng r-sound.

Regards, Paul V.
________________attached________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Yahya,
>
> What do you suggest for making the level system more "bit-
sized", I like to hear what you have to say about that.
>
> The reason I've put "Yew" with the Rhotic Vowels is because it
is just as common as the Rhotic Vowels. It's found in words
like "Human" and "Universal", etc...
> And its also a consonant and vowel ligature.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Best of Regards,
>
> Carl
>
> Yahya <yahya@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Carl,
>
> Yours is a great idea! And Paul's suggestions also have merit.
> Would you consider incorporating them into your system?
>
> Another advantage of introducing a fifth level is that it makes
each
> level more of a "bite-sized" chunk of learning.
>
> Could you please explain why you group Yew with the rhotics? It
> seems to me to belong more naturally with Ian.





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Hi Carl
Actually, I quite like the way you first suggested
to do it.
But if I was going to start from scratch.
For the first Level or Group.
I would list all the simple Shaw consonants that have the same
Keyboard mapping as their equivalent Roman Letter. That is a group
of 16. I would teach them as voiced and un-voiced pairs and show the
Tall Deep contrast.
> > p,b
> > f,v
> > t,d
> > k,g
> > s,z
> > m,n
> > l,r
> > h,w
Then for the Second Level, Common English Vowels
I would do the simple Vowels, the soft,
the long and the Dipthong letters derived from them.
I would discuss the Difference between the Schwa (Ado)
and the Up sound right at the beginning.
This would be another 17 Letters.
> > Ado
> > Up
> > Ash, ?, Ice
> > Egg, ?, Age
> > Ah, Awe, Out
> > If, Eat, Yew (V Keyboard Mapping)
> > On, Oak, Oil
> > Wool, Ooze (M Keyboard mapping),?
The Third Level would be the 6 r-sound vowels (Compound Letters)
Array, Err(Urge), Air, Ear, Or, Are
And I would also re-discuss Yew as a compound letter
as well as the Ew Dipthong in Level 2.
The fourth Level would discuss some more Oddball Letters,
Additions unfamilar to the Romans.
Church (c Keyboard mapping) and Sure
Judge and Measure(Genre)
They and Thigh
Yea (j Keyboard Mapping)
Hung (Ing)
Which gives us 7 more Consonant Letters.
The fifth Level would have one exceptional letter.
Ian is not recommended for American English speakers, but
they need to be able to recognise it.
And a similar warning against the Overuse of On by Americans.
This is my recommended order for fast pathing a new Shaw Learner.
I would take care to show the the uniformity of shapes
within each of the groups.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. in response to an earlier question about why I do not group Yew
with the rhotics?
It seems to me that the Yew represents 2 different sounds. The first
is a compound of Yea+Ooze and secondly the Ew Dipthong included with
the vowels in Level 2. And of course, the second Simpler sound gets
preference.
______________attached________________


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Those are some good ideas. I'd like to see how you'd set up all
48 letter in the Shavian, into that 5 level format. I guess people
today are more spoiled than I was. When I learned Shavian I had to
print off a copy of what the letters look like and represented
soundwise, from www.omniglot.com. And learn the letter at the same
time as how to write/draw (handwrite) them. I had to wade through
all the nuances of each letter and how they all work together to
write English phonemically.
> I like to idea of teaching Shavian by levels (i.e. from most
important letters to least important letters.) I think it is a more
effective than the way I originally taught myself Shavian 5 years
ago when I was 21years old.
>
> I agree, Paul, that all 48 Shaw letters are distinct
phonetic sounds. I only use the term ligature in the visual sense
of each letter.
>
> I'm very curious on how one could teach Shavian in 5 levels
(i.e. what does the list of letters look like) I also like your
idea of pairing the letters up. So, Paul, when you send your reply,
could you, please include a list of letters in the 5 level format.
>
> Best of Regards,
>
> Carl (Shavian Enthusiast)
>
> paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
> Hi Carl and Yahya
>
> I like the idea of Teaching Shavian in 5 levels, especially if we
> are introducing the letters through typing rather than drawing.
> I think by giving students a Shaw font, and letting them see the
> letters right away, it gives them a Jump-start on learning the
Shae
> Alphabet. Hand Writing should come later.
>
> I think these 8 letter pairs make a good size bite.
> > > p,b
> > > f,v
> > > t,d
> > > k,g
> > > s,z
> > > m,n
> > > l,r
> > > h,w
>
> They are very common consonant sounds in English. They also
include
> Tall, Short and Deep letters, which is important to teach right
> upfront. It is also useful to use them to show how Consonont
> clusters work.
>
> I would also like to get away from calling these composite sounds
> ligatures. They all are actually single distinct sounds,
> that I would
> tend to include in with the other simple Vowel Letters.
> For example, I use the Letter Yew to also represent the Dipthong
> "ew" in words such as new, few, cute, fuel and skew.
>
> And I note in the pronunciation key of www.dictionary.com
> they find it necessary to distnguish the 4 r-based vowel sounds.
> [air] air, careful, wear
> [eer] ear, hero, beer
> [er] teacher, afterward, murderer
> [ur] early, bird, stirring
> I guess [or} isn't common in American pronunciation as people say
> saw-ree instead of sore-ee (Sorry about that)
>
> Just because Diagraphs were the only practical way of writing
these
> r-based vowel sounds in the Roman Alphabet,
> doesn't mean we should buy into
> the fallacy, that they are really in fact 2 distinct sounds
written
> togather
> strictly because they are common juxtapositions.
> I consider them to distinct sounds, no different in principle than
> the five common English Dipthongs (Ai, Ei, Oi, Ow, Ew)
>
> So what do you think, Carl
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. Yahya,
> I would include Yew with the Dipthongs, myself, albeit an
> exceptional one..
>
> P.P.S. There is a nice description of the current
> Northern British English Vowels at
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/johnm/flash/nevkey.htm
> Along with a neat interactive quiz where you click on the
> correct vowel for each sample word. Note that some of these
> vowels are only found with a followng r-sound.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> ________________attached________________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Yahya,
> >
> > What do you suggest for making the level system more "bit-
> sized", I like to hear what you have to say about that.
> >
> > The reason I've put "Yew" with the Rhotic Vowels is because it
> is just as common as the Rhotic Vowels. It's found in words
> like "Human" and "Universal", etc...
> > And its also a consonant and vowel ligature.

Welcome to the Shavian Alphabet Forum.
>
> Unfortunately, lately our discussion on the refinement of the
> Shavian Alphabet has lapsed.
> However, we still do teach the Shavian Alphabet to one and
> all.
> Please feel free to ask questions.
>
> Glad to hear you are familar with Quikspeak.
> The major difference between the Shaw Alphabet, and Quikscript
> is that Quikscript does not distinguish between the Schwa
> or minimal Vowel sound and the us/up sound. It does distinguish
> between the Un-voiced w-sound of wind or Juan from the commonly
> voiced regular w-sound. Very small differemces.
> The Shaw or Shavian Alphabet is also slightly more well known
> than Quikscript. G-d knows why.
>
> Anyway, I can provide a Subset of the Shavian Alphabet appropriate
> to any English speaker with an American accent.
>
> Also I can provide excercises to help you recogognise the the
> Schwa/Ado Letter sound im common English words.
> We also have some memberswho are very familar with Standard British
> pronunciation and even the Oxford RP English pronunciation.
> Please let us know your preferred accent to work in.
>
> In any case, feel free to express yourself in either the Shavian
> Alphabet or the more traditional Roman Alphabet.
>
> Roman numbers are almost obsolete, but I expect that the Roman
> Alphabet will still be around for a little while longer,
> even tho it is
> singularly
> unsuited for writing English.

Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Please let me know if you need instructions on how to use
the Rich Text Editor in Yahoo groups to embed Shavian letters into
your Forum postings. I can provide detailed instructions.

Hi Paul,

Thank you for applying the 48 Shavian Letters into the 5 level format of teaching. It makes sense and you explained it clearly me to understand the reasoning behind it. Actually, I think the "5 level" makes more sense for the the more technologically savvy people, to which more an more of the world is becoming. And of course, I think that is way cool, to do.
I also like your suggestion for American English speakers with the "on" and "ian" letters. And lately, before I've even read your reply, I've been forcing myself to avoid using those exact letters to avoid, in my own personal writing with the Shavian Alphabet. (i.e. I've been keeping a journal, just with Shavian.)

Best of regards,

Carl

paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
Hi Carl
Actually, I quite like the way you first suggested
to do it.
But if I was going to start from scratch.
For the first Level or Group.
I would list all the simple Shaw consonants that have the same
Keyboard mapping as their equivalent Roman Letter. That is a group
of 16. I would teach them as voiced and un-voiced pairs and show the
Tall Deep contrast.
> > p,b
> > f,v
> > t,d
> > k,g
> > s,z
> > m,n
> > l,r
> > h,w
Then for the Second Level, Common English Vowels
I would do the simple Vowels, the soft,
the long and the Dipthong letters derived from them.
I would discuss the Difference between the Schwa (Ado)
and the Up sound right at the beginning.
This would be another 17 Letters.
> > Ado
> > Up
> > Ash, ?, Ice
> > Egg, ?, Age
> > Ah, Awe, Out
> > If, Eat, Yew (V Keyboard Mapping)
> > On, Oak, Oil
> > Wool, Ooze (M Keyboard mapping),?
The Third Level would be the 6 r-sound vowels (Compound Letters)
Array, Err(Urge), Air, Ear, Or, Are
And I would also re-discuss Yew as a compound letter
as well as the Ew Dipthong in Level 2.
The fourth Level would discuss some more Oddball Letters,
Additions unfamilar to the Romans.
Church (c Keyboard mapping) and Sure
Judge and Measure(Genre)
They and Thigh
Yea (j Keyboard Mapping)
Hung (Ing)
Which gives us 7 more Consonant Letters.
The fifth Level would have one exceptional letter.
Ian is not recommended for American English speakers, but
they need to be able to recognise it.
And a similar warning against the Overuse of On by Americans.
This is my recommended order for fast pathing a new Shaw Learner.
I would take care to show the the uniformity of shapes
within each of the groups.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. in response to an earlier question about why I do not group Yew
with the rhotics?
It seems to me that the Yew represents 2 different sounds. The first
is a compound of Yea+Ooze and secondly the Ew Dipthong included with
the vowels in Level 2. And of course, the second Simpler sound gets
preference.
______________attached________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Those are some good ideas. I'd like to see how you'd set up all
48 letter in the Shavian, into that 5 level format. I guess people
today are more spoiled than I was. When I learned Shavian I had to
print off a copy of what the letters look like and represented
soundwise, from www.omniglot.com. And learn the letter at the same
time as how to write/draw (handwrite) them. I had to wade through
all the nuances of each letter and how they all work together to
write English phonemically.
> I like to idea of teaching Shavian by levels (i.e. from most
important letters to least important letters.) I think it is a more
effective than the way I originally taught myself Shavian 5 years
ago when I was 21years old.
>
> I agree, Paul, that all 48 Shaw letters are distinct
phonetic sounds. I only use the term ligature in the visual sense
of each letter.
>
> I'm very curious on how one could teach Shavian in 5 levels
(i.e. what does the list of letters look like) I also like your
idea of pairing the letters up. So, Paul, when you send your reply,
could you, please include a list of letters in the 5 level format.
>
> Best of Regards,
>
> Carl (Shavian Enthusiast)
>
> paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
> Hi Carl and Yahya
>
> I like the idea of Teaching Shavian in 5 levels, especially if we
> are introducing the letters through typing rather than drawing.
> I think by giving students a Shaw font, and letting them see the
> letters right away, it gives them a Jump-start on learning the
Shae
> Alphabet. Hand Writing should come later.
>
> I think these 8 letter pairs make a good size bite.
> > > p,b
> > > f,v
> > > t,d
> > > k,g
> > > s,z
> > > m,n
> > > l,r
> > > h,w
>
> They are very common consonant sounds in English. They also
include
> Tall, Short and Deep letters, which is important to teach right
> upfront. It is also useful to use them to show how Consonont
> clusters work.
>
> I would also like to get away from calling these composite sounds
> ligatures. They all are actually single distinct sounds,
> that I would
> tend to include in with the other simple Vowel Letters.
> For example, I use the Letter Yew to also represent the Dipthong
> "ew" in words such as new, few, cute, fuel and skew.
>
> And I note in the pronunciation key of www.dictionary.com
> they find it necessary to distnguish the 4 r-based vowel sounds.
> [air] air, careful, wear
> [eer] ear, hero, beer
> [er] teacher, afterward, murderer
> [ur] early, bird, stirring
> I guess [or} isn't common in American pronunciation as people say
> saw-ree instead of sore-ee (Sorry about that)
>
> Just because Diagraphs were the only practical way of writing
these
> r-based vowel sounds in the Roman Alphabet,
> doesn't mean we should buy into
> the fallacy, that they are really in fact 2 distinct sounds
written
> togather
> strictly because they are common juxtapositions.
> I consider them to distinct sounds, no different in principle than
> the five common English Dipthongs (Ai, Ei, Oi, Ow, Ew)
>
> So what do you think, Carl
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. Yahya,
> I would include Yew with the Dipthongs, myself, albeit an
> exceptional one..
>
> P.P.S. There is a nice description of the current
> Northern British English Vowels at
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/johnm/flash/nevkey.htm
> Along with a neat interactive quiz where you click on the
> correct vowel for each sample word. Note that some of these
> vowels are only found with a followng r-sound.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> ________________attached________________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, carl easton <shavintel16@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Yahya,
> >
> > What do you suggest for making the level system more "bit-
> sized", I like to hear what you have to say about that.
> >
> > The reason I've put "Yew" with the Rhotic Vowels is because it
> is just as common as the Rhotic Vowels. It's found in words
> like "Human" and "Universal", etc...
> > And its also a consonant and vowel ligature.






---------------------------------
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Hi Paul,

Your groupings make sense.

So when will we see your Shavian Primer in stores? ;-)

Regards,
Yahya

music on the web: http://www.esnips.com/web/yahyas-music


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<vandenbrinkg@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Carl
> Actually, I quite like the way you first suggested
> to do it.
> But if I was going to start from scratch.
> For the first Level or Group.
> I would list all the simple Shaw consonants that have the same
> Keyboard mapping as their equivalent Roman Letter. That is a group
> of 16. I would teach them as voiced and un-voiced pairs and show
> the Tall Deep contrast.
> > > p,b
> > > f,v
> > > t,d
> > > k,g
> > > s,z
> > > m,n
> > > l,r
> > > h,w
> Then for the Second Level, Common English Vowels
> I would do the simple Vowels, the soft,
> the long and the Dipthong letters derived from them.
> I would discuss the Difference between the Schwa (Ado)
> and the Up sound right at the beginning.
> This would be another 17 Letters.
> > > Ado
> > > Up
> > > Ash, ?, Ice
> > > Egg, ?, Age
> > > Ah, Awe, Out
> > > If, Eat, Yew (V Keyboard Mapping)
> > > On, Oak, Oil
> > > Wool, Ooze (M Keyboard mapping),?
> The Third Level would be the 6 r-sound vowels (Compound Letters)
> Array, Err(Urge), Air, Ear, Or, Are
> And I would also re-discuss Yew as a compound letter
> as well as the Ew Dipthong in Level 2.
> The fourth Level would discuss some more Oddball Letters,
> Additions unfamilar to the Romans.
> Church (c Keyboard mapping) and Sure
> Judge and Measure(Genre)
> They and Thigh
> Yea (j Keyboard Mapping)
> Hung (Ing)
> Which gives us 7 more Consonant Letters.
> The fifth Level would have one exceptional letter.
> Ian is not recommended for American English speakers, but
> they need to be able to recognise it.
> And a similar warning against the Overuse of On by Americans.
> This is my recommended order for fast pathing a new Shaw Learner.
> I would take care to show the the uniformity of shapes
> within each of the groups.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. in response to an earlier question about why I do not group
> Yew with the rhotics?
> It seems to me that the Yew represents 2 different sounds. The
> first is a compound of Yea+Ooze and secondly the Ew Dipthong
> included with the vowels in Level 2. And of course, the second
> Simpler sound gets preference.
[...]

Hi Paul,

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@>
wrote (much earlier):
> > Hi Carl and Yahya
> >
[...]
> > And I note in the pronunciation key of www.dictionary.com
> > they find it necessary to distnguish the 4 r-based vowel sounds.
> > [air] air, careful, wear
> > [eer] ear, hero, beer
> > [er] teacher, afterward, murderer
> > [ur] early, bird, stirring
> > I guess [or} isn't common in American pronunciation as people say
> > saw-ree instead of sore-ee (Sorry about that)

"sore-ee"?! Are you shore, uh, sure? In Oz, when we say "Sorry",
the first vowel is definitely the On vowel - or possibly, an r-
coloured allophone of On. It rhymes with "lorry" and "quarry".
(But "worry" rhymes with "hurry".)

Regards,
Yahya