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On Wednesday 2008 July 09 00:41:32 Yahya wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethan@...> wrote:
> > paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > > Hi Ethan
> > >
> > > Your last point about
> > >
> > >> Why isn't it acceptible to write "wh" as "hw" (ð`£ð`¢)?
>
> That was its original (Old English) spelling, it corresponds
> with "qu" (kw) in Latin. In fact I would argue that it is still
> phonemically "hw" and not "voiceless w".
>
> > > I hear them as 2 different sounds.
>
> For example hwYn in 'Juan' is 2 sounds.
> But there is an un-voiced 'w' in quick (kwik) which makes sense,
> because the consonant cluster 'qu' is unvoiced, so both consonant
> sounds in the cluster are un-voiced.
> Compare w-sound of 'sweat' with 'Dwayne'.
> The plain W-sound is usually voiced, but in an unvoiced consonant
> cluster, you definately can hear an un-voiced 'w' or 'wh' sound.
>
> > > regards, Paul V.
> >
> > You could make the same argument for unvoiced "r" in words
>
> like "trash", yet nobody's suggesting we ought to have a
> separated "unvoiced r" letter in Shavian. While the unvoiced w sound
> is heard after most unvoiced consonants, this still does not make it
> a distinct phoneme, as there are no examples where voiced/unvoiced w
> makes a difference in meaning.
which, witch?
> The difference always depends on
> another letter. Another such example with vowels is the ð`²
> diphthong in ð`²ð`• (ice) and ð`²ð`Ÿ (eyes) which I pronounce
> differently, yet it's not a phonemic difference, rather the
> difference is made by the final consonant.
>
> > I guess this would all depend on your use of the "wh" cluster - do
>
> you think of it as a single sound (voiceless w, no "h"), or as "h"
> followed by "w"? And if so, is it common enough to justify the
> addition of another letter? I know that to me it has always been two
> separate sounds, and I've wondered most of my life why they put
> the "w" first!
>
> > Take care,
> > Ethan
>
> IMNSHO, Ethan has the right of it. In linguistics parlance, English
> has a single [w] phoneme, with two phonologically conditioned
> allophones [[w+V]] and [[w-V]]. (Please note my use here of various
> brackets ({[/ etc is non-standard - I'm just using different brackets
> to show a different type of phonological entity.) We DO have a
> voiced and an unvoiced variant, but as Ethan rightly points out,
> there is not a single known instance where choosing one over the
> other would choose a different word (meaning) - there's no "minimal
> pair". If you should (manage to) use the voiced allophone in an
> unvoiced context, or vice versa, this would be heard by native
> speakers as an aberrant pronunciation, not a different word. Rather
> difficult to say "queen" with a voiced w, or "guano" with an unvoiced
> w, I think!
>
> Our casual speech here in Oz has (and our formal speech has almost)
> completely replaced the initial consonant cluster /hw/
> (orthographic "wh"), the legacy of the Proto-Indo-European /kw/, by a
> simple /w/. Contrary to the teaching of generations of school-
> teachers, the "aspirated w", [[w+H]], a [[w]] sound *accompanied* by
> forceful breathing out (not preceded by it, as in [[h]][[w]]), is not
> found in the wilds of native English speech, altho it certainly made
> its appearance among the bizarre hothouse lifeforms paraded on many a
> prize-giving stage, to the elocutionists' delight. This [[w+H]] is
> quite simple to produce, but in the result, seems decidedly
> unnatural. Try it: "Whether he would find out why wyes were used by
> rail companies, or which layouts prevailed, was what I wanted to
> know; and why she should care for what-nots, I wot not." Better to
> say this kind of thing in one's everyday elocution, than risk being
> called a blow-hard!
>
> Regards,
> Yahya
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

jeff wrote:
> On Monday 2008 July 07 21:32:41 Ethan wrote:
<snip>
>> in Shavian. While the unvoiced w sound is heard after most unvoiced
>> consonants, this still does not make it a distinct phoneme, as there are
>> no examples where voiced/unvoiced w makes a difference in meaning.
> witch / which?

Witch begins with a W sound, Which begins with an H sound.
That is, 𐑢𐑦𐑗/𐑣𐑢𐑦𐑗 (wich/hwich). Like I said:

>> The
>> difference always depends on another letter.

In this case it's the letter 𐑣 (ha-ha). You wouldn't say that
𐑢𐑦𐑗/𐑕𐑢𐑦𐑗 (witch/switch) was a voiceless w pair would you? Why
𐑢𐑦𐑗/𐑣𐑢𐑦𐑗 (wich/hwich)?

--
('> He shall cover thee with his feathers, <')
/)) and under his wings shalt thou trust: ((\
//'' his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. ''\\

Ethan wrote:
> jeff wrote:
>> On Monday 2008 July 07 21:32:41 Ethan wrote:
> <snip>
>>> in Shavian. While the unvoiced w sound is heard after most unvoiced
>>> consonants, this still does not make it a distinct phoneme, as there are
>>> no examples where voiced/unvoiced w makes a difference in meaning.
>> witch / which?
>
> Witch begins with a W sound, Which begins with an H sound.
> That is, 𐑢𐑦𐑗/𐑣𐑢𐑦𐑗 (wich/hwich). Like I said:
>
>>> The
>>> difference always depends on another letter.
>
> In this case it's the letter 𐑣 (ha-ha). You wouldn't say that
> 𐑢𐑦𐑗/𐑕𐑢𐑦𐑗 (witch/switch) was a voiceless w pair would you? Why
> 𐑢𐑦𐑗/𐑣𐑢𐑦𐑗 (wich/hwich)?
>

And I should add as well that in many dialects, witch/which is not a
minimal pair at all, but they are both pronounced the same. In fact,
the only reason why I distinguish them is because my father and
grandfather distinguished them in their speech. My mother did not, and
I can go either way when I talk!


--
('> He shall cover thee with his feathers, <')
/)) and under his wings shalt thou trust: ((\
//'' his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. ''\\

----------

F wont t kIp HIz TYts in mF On hort n mFnd, but F Am tOld HAt H Onli wE
F kAn kIp Hem iz t giv Hem t oHerz--SEr Hem--n sO, som TYts:

...

Anserz or mIniNles t Aniwon hM hAz not jet Askd H kwesconz.

--r. teklund

[kompEr /mATjM 7:7]

...

wen enlFtend sivilizESon arFvz, moni wil bI non-egzistent. H
profit-mOtiv wil hAv ben replEsd bF a mOr spiricMal servis-mOtivESon.

--/rolf lorson

...

F hAd never rIalFzd hQ impOrtAnt it waz t cMz wat t TiNk until F bekEm
involvd wiH metafiziks n H posibel trAnsmjMtESon v enerJi.

--/Sirli maklEn.

...

Jq iz lerniN, n it iz eksperiensiN, wiHQt pEn. --r. teklund

...

nO won kAn solv problemz fOr somwon hMz problem iz HAt HE dOnt wont
problemz solvd.

...

sFentists hAv redMsd H number v kalAmitIz wI mE blEm on god.

--/Jon lenord

...

wen jM rId a klAsik jM dM not sI in H bUk mOr HAn jM did befOr. jM sI
mOr in jM HAn Her waz befOr.

--/klifton fAdimAn

..

t H bFografer, Yl lFvz or dramAtik konstrukSonz.

--/kATerin AnToni

...___________

oHer repOrts:

in 1952, bFoloJists /brigz n /kiN, v H institMt fOr kAnser reserc in
/filadelfia, klOnd a tAdpOl.

...

sins Hen hundredz v Animalz hAv ben klOnd: a frog (1952), korp (1963),
SIp (1996), monkI (2000), kAtel n kAt (2001), mjMl n hOrs (2003), dog
(2005).
selestial sOrsez hAv stEted HAt AdvAnsd hjMmAn teknoloJi hAz loN sins
sIkretli klOnd hjMmAnz n hAv FdentifFd H prezent jM.es. prezident Az
suc.--abundAnthOp.net

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~111.

423 JIO, JI: a wOrd rUt mIniN erT, sql, grQnd.

1. JIObFos: lFf on erT.

2. JIOkorpik: prodMsiN frMt under H surfas v H grQnd; Az H potEtO.

3. JIOsentrik: meZuriN from H senter v H erT.

4. JIOkemistri: sFens v H kemikal kompoziSon v H erT's krust.

5. JIOkronik: relEtiN t JIOloJikal tFm diviZonz.

6. JIOkrAtik: konserniN H predominAns v lAnd Eriaz in relESon t OSeon
Eriaz.

7. JIOsFklik: relEtiN t H rOtESon v H erT.

8. JIOd: a kAviti lFnd wiH mineralz Or kristal in a nodjMl v stOn.

9. JIodesI: konsern wiH meZurments v sFz n poziSon v erT.

10. JIOdFnAmiks: studi v fOrsez n prosesez wiHin H erT.

11. JIoJenus: grOiN in Or on H grQnd.

12. JIOglifik: relEtiN t morks in roks HAt revIl H JIOloJik pAst.

13. JIognosi: noleJ v H materialz v H erT.

14. JIogrAfi: H sFens v H erT n its lFf.

15. JIOhFdroloJi.

JIO--rUt = erT.

hFdrO (hFdrOs)--grIk rUt = wYter.

log (lOgOs)--rUt = wOrd, studi.

i--sufiks = rezult v AkSon.

sFems trItiN v undergrQnd wYterz.

................................. --m.m.

hIr or a fjM mOr:


...

JIqd: H surfas v H erT.

...

JIoloJi: histori v H erT Az rekOrded in H roks.

...

JIOfEJia: studi v nMtriSon v primativ trFbz hM It klE.

...

JIOmOrfik: relEtiN t H fOrm v H erT.

...

JIofilus: grOiN Or liviN on Or under H grQnd.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /beTani

.

fET:

/JIzus enJqd a sublFm n hOlhorted fET in god.

...

hI eksperiensd H Ordinari ups n dQnz v mOrtal egzistans, but hI never
reliJusli dQted H sertanti v god'z wockEr n gFdans.

...

hiz fET waz H QtgrOT v H insFt bOrn v H Aktiviti v H divFn prezens, hiz
indweliN aJuster.

...

hiz fET waz nIHer tradiSonal nOr mIrli intelekcMal; it waz hOli trM,
personal n pjUrli spiritjMal.

K

H hjMmAn /JIzus sY god Az bIiN hOli, Just, n grEt, Az wel Az bIiN trM,
bjMtiful, n gUd.

...

Yl HIz AtribjMts v diviniti hI fOkusd in hiz mFnd Az H "wil v H foHer in
heven."

...

/JIzus' god waz At won n H sEm tFm "H hOli won v /izrael" n "H liviN n
loviN foHer in heven."

...

H konsept v god Az a foHer waz not OriJinal wiH /JIzus, but hI ekzYlted
n elevEted H FdIa intM a sublFm eksperiens bF acIviN a nM revelESon v
god n bF proklEmiN HAt everi mOrtal krIcur iz a cFld v His foHer v lov,
a son v god.

K154.

fEt-O3:

/JIzus did not kliN t fET in god Az wUd a strugliN sOl At war wiH H
jMnivers n At deT grips wiH a hostil n sinful wOrld; hI did not rezOrt t
fET mIrli Az a konsolESon in H midst v difikultIz Or Az a komfOrt in
Tretend dispEr; fET waz not Just An inlMsOri kompensESon fOr unplezAnt
reAlitIz n H sorOz v liviN.

...

in H veri fEs v Yl H nAcural difikultIz n H tempOral kontradikSonz v
mOrtal egzistAns, hI eksperiensd H trAnkwiliti v suprIm n unkwescond
trust in god n felt H tremendus Tril v liviN, bF fET, in H veri prezens
v H hevenli foHer.

...

n His trFumfAnt fET waz a liviN eksperiens v AkcMal spirit atEnment.

...

/JIzus' grEt kontribjMSon t H vAljMz v hjMmAn eksperiens waz not HAt hI
revIld sO mAni nM FdIaz abQt H foHer in heven, but rAHer HAt hI sO
mAgnifisentli n hjMmAnli demonstrEted a nM n hFer tFp v liviN fET in
god.

...

never on Yl H wOrldz v His jMnivers, in H lFf v Ani won mOrtal did god
ever bekom suc a liviN reAliti Az in H hjMmAn eksperiens v /JIzus v
/nAzoreT.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /rFAn

pigmElion bF /bernard SY

Akt 3:

...

it iz misez /higinz'z At-hOm dE.

...

nObodi hAz jet arFvd.

...

her drYiN-rMm, in a flAt on /celsI embANkment, hAz 3 windOz lUkiN on H
river; n H sIliN iz not sO lofti Az wUd bI in An Older hQs v H sEm
pretenSon.

...

H windOz or Open, giviN Akses t a bAlkoni wiH flQerz in pots.

...

if jM stAnd wiH jUr fEs t H windOz, jM hAv H fFrplEs on jUr left n H dOr
in H rFt-hAnd wYl klOs t H kOrner nIrest H windOz.

...

misez /higinz waz brYt up on /mOris n /burn JOnz; n her rMm, wic iz veri
unlFk her son'z rMm in /wimpOl strIt, iz not krQded wiH furnicur n litel
tEbelz n niknAks.

...

in H midel v H rMm Her iz a big otomAn; n His, wiH H korpet, H /mOris
wYl-pEperz, n H /mOris cintz windO kurtAnz n brokEd koverz v H otomAn n
its kUSonz, suplF Yl H Ornament, n or muc tM hAndsom t bI hiden bF odz n
endz v jMsles TiNz.

...

a fjM gUd ql-pEntiNz from H eksibiSonz in H /grOsvenOr gAleri 30 jIrz
agO (H /burn JOnz, not H /wisler sFd v Hem) or on H wYlz.

...

H Onli lAndskEp iz a /sesil lYson on H skEl v a /rMbenz.

...

Her iz a pOrtrat v misez /higinz Az SI waz wen SI defFd fASon in her jMT
in won v H bjMtiful /rOzetian kostMmz wic, wen kErikacurd bF pIpel hM
did not understAnd, led t H AbzurditIz v popjMlar esTetisizm in H 1870z.

...

in H kOrner dFAgonali opozit H dOr misez /higinz, nQ Over 60 n loN pAst
tEkiN H trubel t dres Qt v H fASon, sits rFtiN At An elegAntli simpel
rFtiN-tEbel wiH a bel buton wiHin rIc v her hAnd.

...

Her iz a /cipendEl cEr furHer bAk in H rMm betwIn her n H windO nIrest
her sFd.

...

At H oHer sFd v H rMm, furHer fOrward, iz An /elizabITAn cEr rufli korvd
in H tEst v /inigO JOnz.

...

on H sEm sFd a piAnO in a dekOrEted kEs.

...

H kOrner betwIn H fFrplEs n H windO iz okjMpFd bF a divAn kUSond in
/mOris cints.

...

it iz betwIn 4 n 5 in H AfternMn.

``````````````````````````````` /b. A.

akt 3b

````````

H dOr iz Opend vFolentli; n /higinz enterz wiH hiz hAt on.

misez higinz: [dismEd] henri! [skOldiN him].

...

wat R jM dMiN hIr todE?

...

it iz mF hOm dE; jM promisd not t kom. [Az hI bendz t kis her, SI tEks
hiz hAt Yf n prezents it t him].

...

higinz: O boHer! [hI TrOz H hAt dQn on H tEbel].

...

misez higinz: gO hOm At wons.

...

higinz: [kisiN her] F nO, moHer. F kEm on purpos.

...

misez higinz: but jM musent. Fm sIrius, /henri.

...

jM ofend Yl mF frendz: HE stop komiN wenever HE mIt jM.

...

higinz: nonsens! F nO F hAv nO smYl tYk; but pIpel dOnt mFnd. [hI sits
on H setI].

...

misez higinz: O! dOnt HE? smYl tYk indId! wat abQt jUr lRJ tYk?

...

rIli, dIr, jM musent stE.

...

higinz: F must. Fv got a Job fOr jM. a fonetik Job.

...

misez higinz: nO jMs, dIr. Fm sori; but F kAnt get rQnd jUr vQelz; n HO
F lFk t get preti pOstkRdz in jUr pAtent SOrthAnd, F YlwEz hAv t rId H
kopIz in Ordinari rFtiN jM sO TYtfuli send mI.

...

higinz: wel, His izent a fonetik Job. ...

misez higinz: jM sed it waz.

...

higinz: not jUr pRt v it. Fv pikd up a girl.

...

misez higinz: duz HAt mIn HAt som girl hAz pikd jM up?

...

higinz: not At Yl. F dOnt mIn a lov afEr.

...

misez higinz: wat a piti!

...

higinz: wF?

...

misez higinz: wel, jM never fYl in lov wiH Aniwon under 45.

...

wen wil jM diskover HAt Her R som rAHer nFs-lUkiN juN wimen abQt?

...

higinz: O, F kAnt bI boHerd wiH juN wimen. mF FdIa v a lovabel wUmAn iz
somTiN Az lFk jM Az posibel.

...

F SAl never get intM H wE v sIriusli lFkiN juN wimen: som hAbits lF tM
dIp t bI cEnJd.

...

[rFziN abruptli n wYkiN abQt, JiNgliN hiz moni n hiz kIz in hiz trQzer
pokets].

...

besFdz, Her Yl idiots.

...

misez higinz: dM jM nO wat jM wUd dM if jM rIli lovd mI, henri?

...

higinz: O boHer! wat? mEri, F supOz?

...

misez higinz: nO. stop fiJetiN n tEk jUr hAndz Qt v jUr pokets.

...

[wiH a Jescur v despEr, hI ObEz n sits dQn agan].

...

HAts a gUd bq. nQ tel mI abQt H girl.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.

akt 3b ................... b.A.

~