The only way you're going to understand the difference between x and D is if
you understand the concept of word stress and how to spot it.
This isn't something a few examples will solve.
Hugh B
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paul vandenbrink [mailto:pvandenbrink@...]
> Sent: 17 January 2005 03:14
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [shawalphabet] The Schwer, the big question
>
>
>
> Hi Guys and Star
> So I am tenatively willing to accept the use of both the array
> (Schwer) and Err (Urge) even without an appropriate sample name for
> the Schwer sound.
> I completely accept the need for Ado and Up. Lots of obvious
> benefits, and it is quite easy to distinguish the 2 phonemes.
> But that is not the case with Array and Err sounds.
>
> I see that Dictionary.com differentiates them quite nicely.
> But can anyone provide a varied list of examples showing where both
> sounds are found in different words.
> I only see Err (Urge) in Consonant closed syllables.
> Perhaps someone else can provide a good Rhotic explanation.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> ____________atttached_______________________
>
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
> <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > How very true, Hugh. Both the Schwa and the schwer are necessary,
> since
> > english speakers naturally will not fully pronounce the unstressed
> > vowel or vowel+r there by creating a need for an "un-vowel." Taking
> it
> > away would both slow transcription as we tried to decide what vowel
> to
> > use to replace the schwa and it would slow comprension. In TO, the
> > hardest thing for children to learn is how to read the emphasis and
> > stress in a new word, yet by the time we are adults, we have seen
> most
> > words before and have developed the "rhythm" of speech in our
> reading
> > (though there are a few adults I have met who still do not read
> aloud
> > with any confidence, which I can only attribute to a "word-method"
> of
> > learning to read and a lack of confidence in reading aloud at all).
> >
> > Yes, both the schwa and up have a place in shavian, if we hope to
> > fulfill Shaw's dream of an alphabet to truly represent the sounds of
> > english.
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> >
> > > This is a rather pointless discussion.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Shavian has "array" for writing the schwer. It works perfectly
> and I
> > > fully
> > > agree with Philip's point that it allows both accent groups to use
> > > the same
> > > letter without necessarily pronouncing it the same. Is there any
> need
> > > to
> > > discuss removing it? Besides, removing it would INCREASE the
> amount
> > > of
> > > letters used to write words, thus negating Shaw's wish for greater
> > > economy
> > > in writing.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > From: stbetta@a... [mailto:stbetta@a...]
> > > Sent: 16 January 2005 21:43
> > > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] keyboard map for shavian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Philip,
> > >
> > >
> > > I have had Unifon writers who say they write in display Unifon and
> > > ignore
> > > the keyboard map. In fact, they cannot even interpret the keyboard
> > > map. I
> > > think this is similar to your point about keyboard Shavian.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > An ambiguous phonogram is not a silent letter. It is just a
> > > soundsign that
> > > is mapped to two sounds. It is not ambiguous within a language
> > > community
> > > since everyone in that community assigns one sound to the symbol.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a departure from the ideal, one sound per symbol system,
> and
> > > would
> > > be a slight reduction in phonemicity. However, there is no
> ambiguity
> > > within
> > > a regional dialect since they all interpret the ambiguous
> character
> > > the same
> > > way.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In New Zealand, there is not hesitation when you ask someone to
> > > pronounce
> > > CORT,
> > >
> > > It is the same as <caught> in General American. <or> = /O/.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As you are using D, it is an ambiguous phonogram. You may
> pronounce D
> > > without an R. I will pronounce it with an R.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > You said that the keyboard map should be ignored. Now you say
> you
> > > like it
> > > > because it permits you to write "mother" without using an R.
> > >
> > > Er, no. I like *Shavian*; the keyboard map is indeed irrelevant.
> > >
> > > And one feature of Shavian that I like is that it lets me
> represent
> > > my
> > > speech in a way that will also represent other people's speech.
> > >
> > > Specifically, I can spell "mother" the same way that an American
> (to
> > > generalise: rhotic = US, non-rhotic = UK, though that's obviously
> not
> > > true foo everyone) would.
> > >
> > > The way this works is with the rhotic "ligature" letters -- which
> > > Shavian (the way I understand it) treats not as ligatures of
> letters
> > > (though that is undoubtedly where they are derived from) but as
> > > single
> > > letters in their own right.
> > >
> > > I agree that D is a letter the same way that X is a letter.
> > > D=a/ar, X = ks/gz....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > SB: There is no major non-rhotic problem with writing mother as
> > > muHar
> > > muHar
> > > > You just interpret <ar> as /a/ unless it comes before a vowel.
> > >
> > > Which means that the writing system is no longer phonemic, since
> you
> > > have "silent" letters again. This goes against the goals of the
> Shaw
> > > alphabet, and you're back in the realm of things such as "doubt",
> > > "know", or "gave" (to exaggerate a little).
> > >
> > > I prefer the version of Shavian I learned, which does not have
> silent
> > > letters. The letter "roar" is always pronounced as /r/, not
> sometimes
> > > /r/ and sometimes silent.
> > >
> > > You need to transcribe ROAR. I don't think you pronounce the R is
> > > the 3rd
> > > transcription
> > >
> > > roar = rOr roUr, r&Ur, ror rOr rYr rP
> > > rawer = ro&r
> > > rower = rO-@r roU-@r rOwP
> > >
> > > --Steve
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
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