Thanks Star & Hugh
That confirms my theory.
If the "er" sound is part of a syllable that ends in a Consonant
it is written with an Err/Urge.
Otherwise it can always be written with an "Array". "Array" is a
shorter sound than the Err/Urge.
Runn-er (array)
> > Urb-an (urge)
> > Riv-er (array)
> > Therm-al (urge)
> > Und-er (array)
> > Urs-ula (urge)
> > irksome (urge)
It is much easier to follow this simple rule than to try and figure
out the intonation or stress of each "er" syllable.
Regards. Paul V.
P.S. Because of the above rule, I would be inclined to spell
Irwin, Earl, erratic, furtive, ur-bane and ergo all with a
Shavian "array"
letter. Any dissenters. I think all of these "er" based syllables
are unstressed.
______________________________attached_________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "Hugh Birkenhead"
<mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> Yep. www.dictionary.com is there to help, too.
>
> Hugh B
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Star Raven [mailto:celestraof12worlds@y...]
> > Sent: 17 January 2005 15:11
> > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] The Schwer, the big question
> >
> >
> > Runner (array)
> > Urban (urge)
> > River (array)
> > Thermal (urge)
> > Under (array)
> > Ursula (urge)
> >
> > Is this what you needed to see? Array is the unstressed
syllable, Urge
> > is the stressed form. I'm not exactly sure where your confusion
lies in
> > this matter.
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hi Guys and Star
> > > So I am tenatively willing to accept the use of both the array
> > > (Schwer) and Err (Urge) even without an appropriate sample
name for
> > > the Schwer sound.
> > > I completely accept the need for Ado and Up. Lots of obvious
> > > benefits, and it is quite easy to distinguish the 2 phonemes.
> > > But that is not the case with Array and Err sounds.
> > >
> > > I see that Dictionary.com differentiates them quite nicely.
> > > But can anyone provide a varied list of examples showing
where both
> > > sounds are found in different words.
> > > I only see Err (Urge) in Consonant closed syllables.
> > > Perhaps someone else can provide a good Rhotic explanation.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > >
> > > ____________atttached_______________________
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
> > > <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > > > How very true, Hugh. Both the Schwa and the schwer are
necessary,
> > > since
> > > > english speakers naturally will not fully pronounce the
unstressed
> > > > vowel or vowel+r there by creating a need for an "un-vowel."
Taking
> > >
> > > it
> > > > away would both slow transcription as we tried to decide
what vowel
> > >
> > > to
> > > > use to replace the schwa and it would slow comprension. In
TO, the
> > > > hardest thing for children to learn is how to read the
emphasis and
> > > > stress in a new word, yet by the time we are adults, we have
seen
> > > most
> > > > words before and have developed the "rhythm" of speech in our
> > > reading
> > > > (though there are a few adults I have met who still do not
read
> > > aloud
> > > > with any confidence, which I can only attribute to a "word-
method"
> > > of
> > > > learning to read and a lack of confidence in reading aloud
at all).
> > > >
> > > > Yes, both the schwa and up have a place in shavian, if we
hope to
> > > > fulfill Shaw's dream of an alphabet to truly represent the
sounds
> > > of
> > > > english.
> > > >
> > > > --Star
> > > >
> > > > --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is a rather pointless discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Shavian has "array" for writing the schwer. It works
perfectly
> > > and I
> > > > > fully
> > > > > agree with Philip's point that it allows both accent
groups to
> > > use
> > > > > the same
> > > > > letter without necessarily pronouncing it the same. Is
there any
> > > need
> > > > > to
> > > > > discuss removing it? Besides, removing it would INCREASE
the
> > > amount
> > > > > of
> > > > > letters used to write words, thus negating Shaw's wish for
> > > greater
> > > > > economy
> > > > > in writing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hugh B
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _____
> > > > >
> > > > > From: stbetta@a... [mailto:stbetta@a...]
> > > > > Sent: 16 January 2005 21:43
> > > > > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] keyboard map for shavian
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Philip,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have had Unifon writers who say they write in display
Unifon
> > > and
> > > > > ignore
> > > > > the keyboard map. In fact, they cannot even interpret the
> > > keyboard
> > > > > map. I
> > > > > think this is similar to your point about keyboard Shavian.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > An ambiguous phonogram is not a silent letter. It is just
a
> > > > > soundsign that
> > > > > is mapped to two sounds. It is not ambiguous within a
language
> > > > > community
> > > > > since everyone in that community assigns one sound to the
symbol.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a departure from the ideal, one sound per symbol
system,
> > > and
> > > > > would
> > > > > be a slight reduction in phonemicity. However, there is no
> > > ambiguity
> > > > > within
> > > > > a regional dialect since they all interpret the ambiguous
> > > character
> > > > > the same
> > > > > way.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In New Zealand, there is not hesitation when you ask
someone to
> > > > > pronounce
> > > > > CORT,
> > > > >
> > > > > It is the same as <caught> in General American. <or>
= /O/.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > As you are using D, it is an ambiguous phonogram. You may
> > > pronounce D
> > > > > without an R. I will pronounce it with an R.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > You said that the keyboard map should be ignored. Now
you say
> > > you
> > > > > like it
> > > > > > because it permits you to write "mother" without using
an R.
> > > > >
> > > > > Er, no. I like *Shavian*; the keyboard map is indeed
irrelevant.
> > > > >
> > > > > And one feature of Shavian that I like is that it lets me
> > > represent
> > > > > my
> > > > > speech in a way that will also represent other people's
speech.
> > > > >
> > > > > Specifically, I can spell "mother" the same way that an
American
> > > (to
> > > > > generalise: rhotic = US, non-rhotic = UK, though that's
obviously
> > >
> > > not
> > > > > true foo everyone) would.
> > > > >
> > > > > The way this works is with the rhotic "ligature" letters --
which
> > > > > Shavian (the way I understand it) treats not as ligatures
of
> > > letters
> > > > > (though that is undoubtedly where they are derived from)
but as
> > > > > single
> > > > > letters in their own right.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree that D is a letter the same way that X is a letter.
> > > > > D=a/ar, X = ks/gz....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > SB: There is no major non-rhotic problem with writing
mother as
> > > > > muHar
> > > > > muHar
> > > > > > You just interpret <ar> as /a/ unless it comes before a
vowel.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which means that the writing system is no longer phonemic,
since
> > > you
> > > > > have "silent" letters again. This goes against the goals
of the
> > > Shaw
> > > > > alphabet, and you're back in the realm of things such
as "doubt",
> > > > > "know", or "gave" (to exaggerate a little).
> > > > >
> > > > > I prefer the version of Shavian I learned, which does not
have
> > > silent
> > > > > letters. The letter "roar" is always pronounced as /r/, not
> > > sometimes
> > > > > /r/ and sometimes silent.
> > > > >
> > > > > You need to transcribe ROAR. I don't think you pronounce
the R
> > > is
> > > > > the 3rd
> > > > > transcription
> > > > >
> > > > > roar = rOr roUr, r&Ur, ror rOr rYr rP
> > > > > rawer = ro&r
> > > > > rower = rO-@r roU-@r rOwP
> > > > >
> > > > > --Steve
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _____
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shawalphabet/
> > > > >
> > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > <mailto:shawalphabet-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
> > > subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> > > > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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