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Hi Jean

Shaw was born and lived in Northern Ireland until he became a Author
and Playwright.
I am certain he would have known about Gaelic.
But Gaelic literacy was fading, and even more entwined with local
Nationalism.
I am certain that because of the Political difficulties, and the lack
of a personal interest, he would give English priority.
After all he wrote all of his latter plays in English using the
Pitman Shorthand.
He would have solid incontovertable knowledge of the benefits of
writing Dialogues of his play and his personal letters in a Phonetic
Alphabet. He was an inveterate letter writer and essayist.

So, He was just generous in wishing to extend that benefit to all of
us who lack the resources to hire a secretary to transcribe our own
personal Shorthand.
He always did want to help the down-trodden.
Thank goodness, E-mail, the Word-processor and the Spell Checker have
all taken away some of the drudgery of writing letters in Modern
times.

Regards, Paul V.
_________________attached_______________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, John Burrows <burrows@t...>
wrote:
Elsewhere I have seen Irish cited as the language with the widest
discrepancy between spelling and pronunciation. But English, not
Irish, had the spelling that irritated Shaw.
>
> Hope I'm not off-topic.
> jb

On 2/22/05 12:04 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

> Hi Joe
> Do you know what the equivalent ShawScript name would be for the
> Array and the Err/Urge sounds?
> Regards, Paul V.

Unfortunately, Read didn't name these letters specifically in the ShawScript
newsletter because he treated them purely as ligatures (as opposed to
distinct compounds). For this reason, I still use the Androcles names for
the ligatures (Array, Err, Air).

Read did list the first halves of the letters Err and Air on their own,
though, with the same names found in Androcles--but with a note that they're
separated only because the compound letters are too wide for a typewriter.
He said that these letters connect to the following Ray (Roar) as a matter
of convention, but I still don¹t imagine they¹d ever be used by themselves.
So, all of this suggests to me that Read probably would have used the same
names for the compound letters as before.

Regards,
Joe
/JO

Hi Paige,

Although, I have not proposed it I do believe if we are to discontinue the example names for Shavian, keeping the consonant names the same as the Roman would be Ideal.

regards,

Carl

Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@...> wrote:


v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
Paul:



Has anyone proposed that the consonants be known by the same name as their roman counterparts? That still leaves us to deal with the vowels, but at least it is a start.



Paige







"I despise a world which does not feel that music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy."
-Ludwig van Beethoven


-----Original Message-----
From: paul vandenbrink [mailto:pvandenbrink@...]
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 9:32 PM
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shawalphabet] Re: Abbreviations as logograms in Shavian




Hi Jean

It took me a few minute, but I think I see what you are getting
at.
In the middle of this essentially existential question about
abbreviations in Shavian,
you are asserting that if you can say an Abbreviation, you can write
it down in Shavian. You can either write it as people say it, or you
syll-a-bi-fy it, with one syllable for each letter with or without
hyphens.

{pause for extraneous literary aside}
In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away---
For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.
{pause for applause, and return to main argument)

There are only 2 problems for which I don't see a solution.
First, not all abbreviations are necessarily pronounced.
Some are just literary conveniences and would be unrecognizable if
vocalized.
Secondly, there is a problem with the Shavian in that the names of
the letters do not really exist as names. Initially they were just a
nice set of sample words, which were somehow promoted above their
station. And they are unruly and hard to remember in a crowd.

Now If only the Shaw Alphabet had a better class of names with a
little distinction, then there would be no problem. We could then
clearly write it out as syllables.

It would be nice to have distinctive names for all the letters.
I'd like to call the first letter Al-af for tradition sake.
I'd do anything for A-laf.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Originally, Shavian was designed using some of the components
and principles of a Shorthand system. The Shorthand's generally
incorporated their own abbreviations for long words, rather than
using T.O. abbreviations or their equivalent in the new script.
Shavian was considered an ideal method of handwriting, that could
also be printed and used for books.
Shavian Electronic Text should work as long as we all remember we are
starting with the bare bones.
______________________attached__________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, John Burrows <burrows@t...>
wrote:
> The three lines above are marked. Not as Abbreviations (sic) but
all t h r e e are *marked*. Well, they are, aren't they? I can't
exactly spell it out for you in Shavian, but I could syll-a-bize or
even syll-a-bi-fy it.
> And what I tell you three times is true. (Snark)
>
> BTW here are some lines from a CD blurb:
> ... THEY TRAVEL THE WORLD
> IMPRESSING NATIVES AND EX-
> PATRIOTS ALIKE WITH THEIR
> MUSIC ...
> Hyphens are just as likely to cause misunderstandings as prevent
them.
>
> I'm still not sure what Shavian is all about, but turning it into
> electronic text does raise interesting questions about emphasis,
format and
> punctuation.








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Hi everyone,

Just learning this and I have a few questions which I'd be extremely
grateful if someone could clear up for me... sorry to be painful

1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles a (as in
ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of each?

2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman we would
use X)?

3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just the 'ble' that
I'm not sure of.

Any help would be much apreciated :)

On 2/24/05 9:04 PM, "Dean" <dewco@...> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Just learning this and I have a few questions which I'd be extremely
> grateful if someone could clear up for me... sorry to be painful

Welcome! I'm sure everybody will be glad to help you out. We all had to
start somewhere.

> 1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles a (as in
> ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of each?

Ado represents the indistinct sound found in unstressed syllables. This
name can be confusing since some people pronounce it differently. It's also
in the following words (shown with CAPS:

Ago
Away
fountAIn
BAnanA (or just the first A)

Most people confuse this with the letter Up. The biggest difference is that
Up can only be in stressed syllables, while Ado can only be in stressed
ones. Ado is the one on the lower-case A in standard Shavian fonts.

These words have Ash:
After
bAt
pAt
mAn

The last one ("man") can be confusing since many people pronounce this as a
diphthong, but it's usually treated as the same sound, or phoneme. The
letter Ash is the one in the place of capital A.

> 2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman we would
> use X)?

Shavian always breaks this down into it's parts. Where you'd write X in
Roman, you use "ks" or "gz" in Shavian. Quikscript does have a letter for
both, though.

> 3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just the 'ble' that
> I'm not sure of.

If you have the font ³Shaw Sans No. 2², it should look up like this:
kEpabal
That syllabic L confuses everybody at some point. Some people will just
spell it like ³bl², but I suggest adding an Ado before a syllabic letter.

> Any help would be much apreciated :)

Glad to help,
Joe Spicer
/JO spFsD

Hi Dean
While I agree completely with Joe on his response to your 3 questions
let me add 2 points.
First, about Ado. It is a minimal vowel sound about 1/2 the length
of the "up" sound. It is very common in casual American English
conversation, but if you ask someone to sound out a word, they
usually accentuate the vowel sound, and so the Ado tends to disappear
and you hear a longer vowel.
The simple "a" and "an" words are pronounced with an Ado sound.
Also an initial "a" in a word where it is pronounced like that
simple "a" word. (i.e. alert, around, along, ability, abolish, above,
acquaint (sounds like "a quaint" )) is pronounced with the Ado sound.

Second, about X.
Remember "X" is not always pronounced "ks". At the beginning of word,
it is usually pronounced and written as a Shaw "Zoo" letter.
(i.e. Xerox, xylophone, Xenon, xenophobia)
Many times it is only pronounced only as a "k". (i.e. excercise,
excited) or "gz" in exact.
Since it doesn't have a consistent pronunciation, it really doesn't
make sense to create an equivalent Shaw Letter for "X". Shaw Letter
have only one pronunciation.

Regards, Paul V.

_____________attached________________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
> > 1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles a
(as in
> > ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of each?
>
> Ado represents the indistinct sound found in unstressed syllables.
This
> name can be confusing since some people pronounce it differently.
It's also
> in the following words (shown with CAPS:
>
> Ago
> Away
> fountAIn
> BAnanA (or just the first A)
>
> Most people confuse this with the letter Up. The biggest
difference is that
> Up can only be in stressed syllables, while Ado can only be in
stressed
> ones. Ado is the one on the lower-case A in standard Shavian fonts.
>
> These words have Ash:
> After
> bAt
> pAt
> mAn
>
> The last one ("man") can be confusing since many people pronounce
this as a
> diphthong, but it's usually treated as the same sound, or phoneme.
The
> letter Ash is the one in the place of capital A.
>
> > 2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman we
would
> > use X)?
>
> Shavian always breaks this down into it's parts. Where you'd write
X in
> Roman, you use "ks" or "gz" in Shavian. Quikscript does have a
letter for
> both, though.
>
> > 3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just the 'ble'
that
> > I'm not sure of.
>
> If you have the font ³Shaw Sans No. 2², it should look up like this:
> kEpabal
> That syllabic L confuses everybody at some point. Some people will
just
> spell it like ³bl², but I suggest adding an Ado before a syllabic
letter.

These are minimal vowel sounds. See examples, where a consonant is
pronounced as a syllable. We indicate this with the Ado letter.
(i.e. girl, isle, blossom, chasm, often, able, jail, prism}


> Joe Spicer
> /JO spFsD

--- Dean <dewco@...> wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Just learning this and I have a few questions which I'd be extremely
> grateful if someone could clear up for me... sorry to be painful
>
> 1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles a (as in
>
> ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of each?
>

Ash is the sound of a short a. Used in Alphabet, abatoir, albino. Ado
is used to represent the schwa sound found in unstressed syllables.

> 2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman we would
>
> use X)?
>

Why would you need such a letter? It's just one more ligature to learn
that isn't used that much.

> 3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just the 'ble' that
>

This is one that is up for debate, known as the syllabic l. I
personally would use: k-(long a)-p-(schwa)-b-l but that's my preferred
way.

Thanks for your questions.
--Star

> I'm not sure of.
>
> Any help would be much apreciated :)
>
>
>
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!

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DEWCO,

Check out www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/shavian-short.html
And see if this provides any answers.

Have you downloaded the Shaw Sans 2 font?
Hi everyone,

Just learning this and I have a few questions which I'd be extremely
grateful if someone could clear up for me... sorry to be painful

1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles a (as in
ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of each?
Check any dictionary. The ado (schwa-a) will tend to have a short unstressed
uh sound.

a as /ae/,
2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman we would
use X)?
There is not single Shavian letter for either ks or ts.
X would be ks or gz depending on how it was pronounced.
egzAmpal
iksept
3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just the 'ble' that
I'm not sure of.
There is some ambiguity there.
See
Is the a bull in table or vegetable?
Is there a cow in Moscow?

kEpabal kEpabUl

Steve

I still think you boys are crazy with your "half the length" and
millisecond measurments. The difference is not in length but in weight.
The up sound is a stressed sound as in Under, Upwards, and Buddy, while
the schwa is an unstressed sound used to denote where a vowel has been
all but dropped.

Love ya!
--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Dean
> While I agree completely with Joe on his response to your 3 questions
> let me add 2 points.
> First, about Ado. It is a minimal vowel sound about 1/2 the length
> of the "up" sound. It is very common in casual American English
> conversation, but if you ask someone to sound out a word, they
> usually accentuate the vowel sound, and so the Ado tends to disappear
>
> and you hear a longer vowel.
> The simple "a" and "an" words are pronounced with an Ado sound.
> Also an initial "a" in a word where it is pronounced like that
> simple "a" word. (i.e. alert, around, along, ability, abolish, above,
>
> acquaint (sounds like "a quaint" )) is pronounced with the Ado sound.
>
> Second, about X.
> Remember "X" is not always pronounced "ks". At the beginning of word,
> it is usually pronounced and written as a Shaw "Zoo" letter.
> (i.e. Xerox, xylophone, Xenon, xenophobia)
> Many times it is only pronounced only as a "k". (i.e. excercise,
> excited) or "gz" in exact.
> Since it doesn't have a consistent pronunciation, it really doesn't
> make sense to create an equivalent Shaw Letter for "X". Shaw Letter
> have only one pronunciation.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> _____________attached________________________________
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
> > > 1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles a
> (as in
> > > ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of each?
> >
> > Ado represents the indistinct sound found in unstressed syllables.
>
> This
> > name can be confusing since some people pronounce it differently.
> It's also
> > in the following words (shown with CAPS:
> >
> > Ago
> > Away
> > fountAIn
> > BAnanA (or just the first A)
> >
> > Most people confuse this with the letter Up. The biggest
> difference is that
> > Up can only be in stressed syllables, while Ado can only be in
> stressed
> > ones. Ado is the one on the lower-case A in standard Shavian
> fonts.
> >
> > These words have Ash:
> > After
> > bAt
> > pAt
> > mAn
> >
> > The last one ("man") can be confusing since many people pronounce
> this as a
> > diphthong, but it's usually treated as the same sound, or phoneme.
>
> The
> > letter Ash is the one in the place of capital A.
> >
> > > 2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman we
> would
> > > use X)?
> >
> > Shavian always breaks this down into it's parts. Where you'd write
>
> X in
> > Roman, you use "ks" or "gz" in Shavian. Quikscript does have a
> letter for
> > both, though.
> >
> > > 3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just the 'ble'
> that
> > > I'm not sure of.
> >
> > If you have the font �Shaw Sans No. 2�, it should look up like
> this:
> > kEpabal
> > That syllabic L confuses everybody at some point. Some people will
>
> just
> > spell it like �bl�, but I suggest adding an Ado before a syllabic
> letter.
>
> These are minimal vowel sounds. See examples, where a consonant is
> pronounced as a syllable. We indicate this with the Ado letter.
> (i.e. girl, isle, blossom, chasm, often, able, jail, prism}
>
>
> > Joe Spicer
> > /JO spFsD
>
>
>
>


====http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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Hi Star
We seem to be saying the same thing.
Ado = "minimal vowel sound"
= "sound used to denote where a vowel has been all but dropped"

Maybe it's my Canadian accent.
I notice I still use Ado (Schwa) in the middle of the word "inte-
resting", whereas you guys down there skip the Ado sound and just
say, "int-resting".
Is that true across all of the U.S. of A..

Regards, Paul V.
_______________________attached__________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> I still think you boys are crazy with your "half the length" and
> millisecond measurments. The difference is not in length but in
weight.
> The up sound is a stressed sound as in Under, Upwards, and Buddy,
while
> the schwa is an unstressed sound used to denote where a vowel has
been
> all but dropped.
>
> Love ya!
> --Star
>
> --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Dean
> > While I agree completely with Joe on his response to your 3
questions
> > let me add 2 points.
> > First, about Ado. It is a minimal vowel sound about 1/2 the length
> > of the "up" sound. It is very common in casual American English
> > conversation, but if you ask someone to sound out a word, they
> > usually accentuate the vowel sound, and so the Ado tends to
disappear
> >
> > and you hear a longer vowel.
> > The simple "a" and "an" words are pronounced with an Ado sound.
> > Also an initial "a" in a word where it is pronounced like that
> > simple "a" word. (i.e. alert, around, along, ability, abolish,
above,
> >
> > acquaint (sounds like "a quaint" )) is pronounced with the Ado
sound.
> >
> > Second, about X.
> > Remember "X" is not always pronounced "ks". At the beginning of
word,
> > it is usually pronounced and written as a Shaw "Zoo" letter.
> > (i.e. Xerox, xylophone, Xenon, xenophobia)
> > Many times it is only pronounced only as a "k". (i.e. excercise,
> > excited) or "gz" in exact.
> > Since it doesn't have a consistent pronunciation, it really
doesn't
> > make sense to create an equivalent Shaw Letter for "X". Shaw
Letter
> > have only one pronunciation.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > _____________attached________________________________
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joe <wurdbendur@g...> wrote:
> > > > 1. I'm having trouble distinguishing between the two vowles
a
> > (as in
> > > > ash) and a (as in ado). Could someone give me exaples of
each?
> > >
> > > Ado represents the indistinct sound found in unstressed
syllables.
> >
> > This
> > > name can be confusing since some people pronounce it
differently.
> > It's also
> > > in the following words (shown with CAPS:
> > >
> > > Ago
> > > Away
> > > fountAIn
> > > BAnanA (or just the first A)
> > >
> > > Most people confuse this with the letter Up. The biggest
> > difference is that
> > > Up can only be in stressed syllables, while Ado can only be in
> > stressed
> > > ones. Ado is the one on the lower-case A in standard Shavian
> > fonts.
> > >
> > > These words have Ash:
> > > After
> > > bAt
> > > pAt
> > > mAn
> > >
> > > The last one ("man") can be confusing since many people
pronounce
> > this as a
> > > diphthong, but it's usually treated as the same sound, or
phoneme.
> >
> > The
> > > letter Ash is the one in the place of capital A.
> > >
> > > > 2. Is there no single letter to represent 'ks' (as in roman
we
> > would
> > > > use X)?
> > >
> > > Shavian always breaks this down into it's parts. Where you'd
write
> >
> > X in
> > > Roman, you use "ks" or "gz" in Shavian. Quikscript does have a
> > letter for
> > > both, though.
> > >
> > > > 3. How would you write the word 'capable' - it's just
the 'ble'
> > that
> > > > I'm not sure of.
> > >
> > > If you have the font ³Shaw Sans No. 2², it should look up like
> > this:
> > > kEpabal
> > > That syllabic L confuses everybody at some point. Some people
will
> >
> > just
> > > spell it like ³bl², but I suggest adding an Ado before a
syllabic
> > letter.
> >
> > These are minimal vowel sounds. See examples, where a consonant
is
> > pronounced as a syllable. We indicate this with the Ado letter.
> > (i.e. girl, isle, blossom, chasm, often, able, jail, prism}
> >
> >
> > > Joe Spicer
> > > /JO spFsD
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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