Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "paul vandenbrink" wrote:


> There is some internal consistency in the
> Traditional English way of setting out the
> vowels. Although the organization is not
> logical from a phonetical standpoint, it
> does cover most of the bases.

What i thought was this; if someone (someone
without knowledge of or interest in the IPA or
its definitions) were to sit down and wish to put
together in Shavian a sentence such as, say:

"I hope we may see the light of day soon"

The keys for the long vowels would be easier to
remember if they were assigned to correspond to
their pronunciation in the traditional English way.
To match the names of the vowels, in fact.

I...O...E...A...E...I...A...U

The same sentence written using the present
mapping system would require that one remember,
and type:

F...O...I...E...I...F...E...M

Which is easier?

Of course, the devoted user can commit to memory
any random selection of keys, That is not the point.
Rather, what would be easier for newcomers
to master? For children to learn?

dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "dshepx" wrote:

> This uses all 48 lower and upper
> case letters.


Besides not being able to count, it
appears that I proposed using D twice,
not a good idea. I also see in an earlier
posting that having a single keystroke
produce a combination of letters is not
easily done, so the proposed supplemental
letters should be scrapped anyway until
such time as someone designs new Shavian
letters for these sounds.

Therefore, the complex vowels for which
there are no Shavian letters would have to
remain as combinations. Thus:

pOOR = pUR
pURE = pVR
IRE = IR
OUR = auR

and for those who need them:

ORE, bORE, dOOR = OR, bOR, dOR
ERE, whERE = eR, hweR
AIR, thERE = aR, DaR
they're = DAR


And, to sum up once again, a more
English-oriented mapping system
(for the vowels mainly):

..............................................
sounds mapping position

...........
consonants proposed current

peep/bib same p/b
tot/deed same t/d
kick/gag same k/g
fief/verve same f/v
thin/then T/D T/H
sauce/zoos same s/z
shush/measure same S/Z
church/judge C/J c/J
yea/woe same j/w
hope/hang same h/N
lull/roar same l/r
mime/none same m/n

..........
vowels

short/long
lower case/
upper case

ash/ace a/A A/E
egg/east e/E e/I
it/ice i/I i/F
ox/oak o/O o/O
book/boot u/U U/M
up/ought y/Y u/Y
ago/ah x/X a/y
out/oil q/Q Q/q

...........
complex vowels

pARk/fORk P/F R/P

bARe/hER B/H X/x
or
mARE/hER M/H X/x

ARray/gEAR R/G D/C
or
ARray/bEER R/B D/C

IAn/YEW K/V W/V
or
IAn/YEW L/V W/V
(using the Irish Liam as a hook for the often Scots Ian)

namer dot c G or /


..........
dshep

DShep and Paul,

We don't seem to be able to bury the keyboard map convention issue.

It is all a little moot until someone takes the time to create an alternate
keyboard map
for the Shavian characters.

Most of us oldies have already learned the DeMeyere conventions and will
probably resist such changes. No one likes to have to learn how to spell again.

However, the reasons for keyboard map reform are the same as for
spelling reform in general .... it is easier for the newbies.

--Steve

(Paul) There is some internal consistency in the
> Traditional English way of setting out the
> vowels. Although the organization is not
> logical from a phonetical standpoint, it
> does cover most of the bases.

(dshep) What i thought was this; if someone (someone
without knowledge of or interest in the IPA or
its definitions) were to sit down and wish to put
together in Shavian a sentence such as, say:

"I hope we may see the light of day soon"

The keys for the long vowels would be easier to
remember if they were assigned to correspond to
their pronunciation in the traditional English way.
To match the names of the vowels, in fact.

I...O...E...A...E...I...A...U

The same sentence written using the present
mapping system would require that one remember,
and type:

F...O...I...E...I...F...E...M

Which is easier?

Of course, the devoted user can commit to memory
any random selection of keys, That is not the point.
Rather, what would be easier for newcomers
to master? For children to learn?

dshep,

Thanks for restating my point much clearer than I did.
Most children arrive in preschool with the ability to sing the alphabet song.
They have some knowledge of the tradtional letter names for the long vowels.
One can build on this or start from scratch.

"I hope we may see the light of day soon"

UNIFON: I HÓP WÉ MÁ SÉ DU LÍT UV DÁ SÚN (simulated display with macrons)
I hOp wE mA sE Du lIt uv dA sUn (keyboard map)

(SB) Once literate, it is easier to switch around the sound-symbol
correspondences.
However, it does mean that the DeMeyere keyboard map will not be readable
without a key.
Unifon is borderline readable. I much prefer Da for (the) to Du.
but I do like AEIOU for the traditional name vowels rather than EIFOM
if the system is going to be used as an initial teaching alphabet.

If it is a parallel writing system, there are advantages to something closer
to
e i ai oU iu

-Steve

Hi /dSep
The easiest system of keys for a Newcomer to master is a minimal set of
mutually exclusive letters with an internally consistent pattern.
As I mentioned before, people using American pronunciation could
exclude a number of Shavian letters, to simplify their Spelling.

But in any case, the internal pattern of Shavian is still much simpler
to remember than the pattern of keys and Diagraphs used for the Roman
Letters and sounds. The common letters should not reqire the use of a
Shift
key.
You are really suggesting that for people who are already versed in the
QWERTY keyboard, we can maximize the correspondences to make it less
confusing for them to go on to learn the Shavian Keyboard mapping.

I don't think you can assume children or foreigners are already versed
in the QWERTY keyboard. It is in no sense universal, even among the
countries using a Roman Alphabet. Take a look at a Greek or Hebrew
keyboard and you can see the fallacy of your suggestion.

Regards, /pYl /vI.
______________________attached__________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
> Which is easier?
>
> Of course, the devoted user can commit to memory
> any random selection of keys, That is not the point.
> Rather, what would be easier for newcomers
> to master? For children to learn?
>
> dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- stbetta@a... wrote:


> Thanks for restating my point ......

> -Steve


Yes, I see that you had already made this case before,
and i should have referred to it. 'poligies, 'poligies.

> We don't seem to be able to bury the keyboard
> map convention issue.

Should it be buried? It's an semi-important issue.

> It is all a little moot until someone takes the time
> to create an alternate keyboard map for the Shavian
> characters.

There are people who could (I wish i were one).
The ideal I would think would be for everyone to
make or have his own preferred system; after all,
it is the the result that counts, not necessarily how
one gets there (yes, i know this attitude does not
apply to all fields of life).

dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "paul vandenbrink" wrote:

> The easiest system of keys for a Newcomer to master
> is a minimal set of mutually exclusive letters with an
> internally consistent pattern.

That is what i thought i was proposing.

> As I mentioned before, people using American
> pronunciation could exclude a number of Shavian
> letters, to simplify their Spelling.
>
> But in any case, the internal pattern of Shavian is
> still much simpler to remember than the pattern
> of keys and Diagraphs used for the Roman Letters
> and sounds. The common letters should not reqire
> the use of a Shift key.

I don't see how you can avoid using the shift key,
there are simply too many Shavian letters. So a
system that would distribute them systematically as
lower case/lax and upper case/tense would parallel
the existing (dare i say logical) recognition and
distinction of consonsants as voiced and voiceless.
A simple separation of balanced parts. If it's painless,
then let order and reason reign!


> You are really suggesting that for people who are
> already versed in the QWERTY keyboard, we can
> maximize the correspondences to make it less
> confusing for them to go on to learn the Shavian
> Keyboard mapping.

I don't see that this has anything to do with the qwerty
keyboard. Once the corrspondence has been mapped,
one can switch to Dvorak and the correspondence shall
follow, then most of the vowels would be available in
the left-hand middle row for those who prefer them there.

> I don't think you can assume children or foreigners
> are already versed in the QWERTY keyboard. It is in no
> sense universal, even among the countries using a
> Roman Alphabet. Take a look at a Greek or Hebrew
> keyboard and you can see the fallacy of your suggestion.

Children are little versed in anything, that's why they are
obliged to learn, so we might as well make it as easy as
possible for them.

All (European) keyboards using Roman letters have only slight
variations from qwerty, usually involving only two or three keys
and not all of these as letters. Greek and Hebrew keyboards are
beside the point, are they not? How would they type English
anyway?


dshep

hF /dSep
A response to your assertion that you don't see how one could avoid
using the Shift key for the Shavian Letter Keyboard Mapping.

While I am in favour of a logical distribution such as you suggest,
I do wish to point out there are many unused keys on the normal
keyboard.
There are 11 available keys, not counting another 10 redundant keys
for the numeric digits. (I usually type numbers from the keypad in
any case. 26+11+10 = 47
Why can't we use these extra keys.
For an American pronunciation, a small number of Shavian letters
could be discarded. (i.e. Ian, Yea, Err, Ah or On, etc)
It doesn't seem to impossible to make a good fit.

rIgRdz, /pYl /vI.

P.S. The Roman(26), Hebrew(22) and Greek(24) Alphabets all are
derived from one
original Proto Alphabet. There are correspondences between most of
the letters
and even the order of those letters.
But look at the variation when you see those same letters scatttered
over a Keyboard.

___________________attached_____________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
> > As I mentioned before, people using American
> > pronunciation could exclude a number of Shavian
> > letters, to simplify their Spelling.
> > The common Shavian letters should not require
> > the use of a Shift key.
>
> I don't see how you can avoid using the shift key,
> there are simply too many Shavian letters. So a
> system that would distribute them systematically as
> lower case/lax and upper case/tense would parallel
> the existing (dare i say logical) recognition and
> distinction of consonsants as voiced and voiceless.
> A simple separation of balanced parts. If it's painless,
> then let order and reason reign!
>
> dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "paul vandenbrink"

wrote:


> A response to your assertion that you don't see how one could avoid
> using the Shift key for the Shavian Letter Keyboard Mapping.
>
> While I am in favour of a logical distribution such as you suggest,
> I do wish to point out there are many unused keys on the normal
> keyboard.
> There are 11 available keys, not counting another 10 redundant keys
> for the numeric digits. (I usually type numbers from the keypad in
> any case. 26+11+10 = 47
> Why can't we use these extra keys.

Are you seriously suggesting using the numerical keys?
It would hardly be intuitive.

dshep

TANks, /hV
its nFs nyt t hAv t dIal wiT H spAm.
(* It is nice not to have to deal with the Spam.*)
rIgRdz, /pYl /vI.l
pI. es. F Am bAk hOm frum /grIs, sEf n AlmOst sQnd.
/ATinA wuz a vXI unhelTI plEs
fP mI t vizat. it trigxd mF AlDJIz.
_____________attached______________________
>From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...>
>Reply-To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
>To: <shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] Employee Benefits
>Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:05:52 +0100
>
>Spammer banned and message deleted from group.
>
>Hugh B
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com [mailto:shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com]
> > On Behalf Of akhila_tn1
> > Sent: 29 May 2005 10:36
> > To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [shawalphabet] Employee Benefits
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I hope this group message of mine finds the reader in good health and
> > mood. I'm Akhila, content editor for one of the pages in targetednews
> > and this being my first post, I'll keep it short. You can find the
> > complete Employee Benefits directory here
> > http://targetednews.info/EmployeeBenefits/ .
> >
> > Take care,
> > Akhila
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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> > A response to your assertion that you don't see how one could avoid
> > using the Shift key for the Shavian Letter Keyboard Mapping.
> >
> > While I am in favour of a logical distribution such as you suggest,
> > I do wish to point out there are many unused keys on the normal
> > keyboard.
> > There are 11 available keys, not counting another 10 redundant keys
> > for the numeric digits. (I usually type numbers from the keypad in
> > any case. 26+11+10 = 47
> > Why can't we use these extra keys.
>
> Are you seriously suggesting using the numerical keys?
> It would hardly be intuitive.

To be honest, filling all the available keys on the keyboard with Shavian
letters is a bad idea. You mustn't forget that the priority should be to
place the *most typed* characters on the unshifted positions. Many
punctuation symbols are far more frequently typed than most Shavian
characters. This is why on my ShavianB layout I placed punctuation symbols
on the number keys (and relegated the numbers themselves to shift
positions).

See the attached JPEG to see the ShavianB layout.

Hugh B

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