Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

Hi Star

Let me offer an alternate location that is more consistent with a
simple to remember Keyboard mapping scheme.
Look below the current Semi-Colon Key. On the bottom row of keys,
there is a Comma Key and a Period Key (Full Stop)
Why not make Shift Comma equal to the Semi-Colon
and Shift Period equal to the Colon
The existing "<" and ">" signs are not used as Punctuation in English,
and will not be missed.
As the Semi-Colon can be used a Super Comma. (See revious usage notes)
and a Colon is used to represent a slightly less than Full Stop,
there is a logical association, that makes it easy to remember the
location of these 2 Keys. Not to mention, they both look alike.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. Aficionados are rare but hardy breed. I will try not to under-
estimate their influence in the future.
________________________attached__________________________________


--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> In that case, why not keep all the punctuation on the shifted top
row
> keys? Eh, I'm willing to try it.
>
> --Star, the aficionado
>
> --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Star
> >
> > Let's leave aside the Programming aspect for the moment and look
at
> > the
> > usage of the Colon and Semi-colon in Normal English writing.
> > I believe they are rarely used and so can be moved with few tears
to
> > the less easily used Upper case, requiring the Shift Key.
> > I didn't wish to pick a key for them at this point, until we have
> > settled on which keys are assigned to the more important Shaw
> > Letters.
> > This method of Change is actually derived from a Programming
> > technique
> > called Stepwise Refinement.
> > I am quite certain that your husband would be familar with it.
> >
> > So when would we need a Colon?
> > According to the Wikipedia
> > Colons are most commonly used to introduce lists.
> > Colons are also used after the salutation in a formal letter.
> > They are also occasionally used to connect a broad idea with a
> > specific
> > example: two related sentences can be separated by colons instead
of
> > periods or semicolons. Colons may also be used to introduce a
direct
> > quote.
> > In any of these cases, a colon can only be used if the clause
> > preceding
> > the colon is independent.
> > In effect, Colons are used a formal Marker of of certain common
> > Sentence constructs, used in business or scientific situations.
> >
> > So when would we need a Semi-Colon?
> > According to the Wikipedia
> > Generally, it is used to bind together two sentences more closely
> > than
> > they would be if separated by a full stop.
> > It often replaces a conjunction such "as", "and" or "but". A
writer
> > might consider this appropriate where they are trying to indicate
a
> > close relationship between two sentences, or a 'run-on' in meaning
> > from
> > one to the next; they don't wish the connection to be broken by
the
> > abrupt use of a full-stop.
> > Occasionally in formal or business letters, it is used as a kind
of
> > Super-comma.
> > It is used as a way of indicating a longer pause than a comma
would,
> > in order to make the meaning clear in a sentence where commas are
> > already being used for other purposes.
> > A common example of this use is to separate the items of a list
when
> > some of the items themselves contain commas.
> > For example, "There are several Burger Houses in Atlanta,
Georgia;
> > Greenville, South Carolina; Pensacola, Florida; and Mobile,
Alabama."
> >
> >
> > In effect, Semi-Commas are used in 2 situations. In the first when
> > the
> > writer prefers not to formally link two sentences with a
Conjunction.
> >
> > This is common in casual speech, so the writer might be just
> > providing
> > Dialogue, for example.
> > This way, the Author can still indicate some kind of dependence
> > between
> > the two sentences.
> >
> > Secondly, as way of keeping his commas straight, when he is
> > separating
> > order pairs or ordered triples.
> >
> > As we can plainly see, Semi-colons and Colon are optional extras
in
> > ordinary English writing. Nice to have, but rarely used except by
> > aficionados.
> >
> > Anyway, I will add them to the bottom of the list of essential
> > puntuation keys.
> > In particular, the Semi-Colon seems more useful than the Colon.
> > Comments?
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> >
> > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
> > <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > > The only problem I have is where you have used the punctuation
as a
> > > letter. I'm guessing that you have alternate places for these to
> > be?
> > My
> > > dear husband who is a programmer uses the semicolon quite a
bit, as
> > > well as the plus sign and I'm a writer who uses the semicolon
and
> > colon
> > > on occasion. I would hate to see these things lost.
> > >
> > > --Star
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =========>
> http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
>
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

Hi Robert
While I would never deliberately handicap those aficionados,
who make full use of the overly-generous
albeit obtruce English punctuation,
I would like to remind one and all the Shaw Letters come first.
As the 48 Shavian Character require more keys, we must Rob
Peter to pay Paul. Peter has to pay the pipewriter.
Anyway before I get lost in the Metaphor of it all,
let me say,
that I proposed a new compromise location for 2 of those
recycled Punctuation Keys. (;,:) It is in my last post.
A good home can be found for the rest of that dissolute bunch.
Regards to all the aficionados out there, Paul V.
______________________attached______________________________

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, robert McBroom
<mcbroom1946@y...> wrote:
> Hear hear! While I applaud any attempt to make the
> Shavian keyboard more rational, why oh why would you
> handicap writers who - God forbid - might need a
> semicolon or a bracket in their Shavian text? Not that
> I have a better solution yet....
>
> --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
>
> > The only problem I have is where you have used the
> > punctuation as a
> > letter. I'm guessing that you have alternate places
> > for these to be? My
> > dear husband who is a programmer uses the semicolon
> > quite a bit, as
> > well as the plus sign and I'm a writer who uses the
> > semicolon and colon
> > on occasion. I would hate to see these things lost.
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@h...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > 1. Tim and I climbed up the sagging steps and
> > looked in the window.
> > > New: /tim n A klAmbd up H sagiN steps n lUkt in H
> > wind;.
> > > Old: /tim n F klFmbd up H sAgiN steps n lUkt in H
> > windO.
> > > 2. We saw boxes and dusty tables. We walked in.
> > > New: wI sO boksxz n dustI tEbxlz. wI wOkt in.
> > > Old: wI sY boksaz n dustI tEbalz. wI wYkt in.
> > > 3. The creaking made us afraid. Tim felt a tapping
> > on his head.
> > > New: H krIkiN mEd us xfrEd. /tim felt x tapiN on
> > hiz hed.
> > > Old: H krIkiN mEd us afrEd. /tim felt a tApiN on
> > hiz hed.
> > > 4. Then a big blob chased us out of the house!
> > > New: Hen x big blOb cEst us qt v H hqs!
> > > Old: Hen a big blYb cEst us Qt v H hQs!
> > > 5. I screamed and woke up. Mom hugged me and
> > tucked me in again.
> > > 6. It was only a dream.
> > >
> > > As you can see for a minimal difference in output,
> > you gain a much
> > > easier to remember and use Keyboard mapping.
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > P.S. It surprizing how seldom the Oil Vowel sound
> > is used in English.
> > > It is one of the most underused English Vowel
> > sounds.
> > >
> >
> ______________________attached_______________________
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul
> > vandenbrink"
> > > <pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
> > > > Here are some Sample Sentences using both the
> > Old Shavian Keyboard
> > >
> > > > Mapping and the New alternate Shaw keyboard
> > mapping.
> > > >
> > > > OLD -> H kwik brQn foks Jumpt OvD a lEzI dYg.
> > > >
> > > > NEW -> H kwik brqn foks jumpt ;vD x lEzI dOg.
> > > >
> > > > OLD -> H tFm hAz kum fP Yl gUd men t kum t H Ed
> > v H pRtI.
> > > >
> > > > NEW -> H tAm haz kum f[ Ol gUd men t kum t H Ed
> > v H pRtI.
> > > >
> > > > OLD -> /pItD /pFpD pikt a pek v pikald pepxz.
> > > >
> > > > NEW -> /pItD /pApD pikt a pek v pikald pep+z.
> > > >
> > > > As you can easily see, Overall the differences
> > in the text is
> > > minimal.
> > > > In the moste common case, the change is just the
> > substitution of
> > > the
> > > > Old Capital letter with the same letter in Lower
> > Case.
> > > >
> > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > >
> > > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul
> > vandenbrink"
> > > > <pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
> > > > > Here is a list of the proposed tweaks to take
> > advantage of some
> > > un-
> > > > > used Keys on a typical Qwerty Keyboar
> > >
> > > d.
> > > > > As you can see these changes do not make The
> > Shavian Keyboard
> > > conform
> > > > > more closely to the Roman Alphabet. Instead it
> > opens up some of
> > > the
> > > > > current clastrophobic correspondences, and
> > make the Keyboard much
> > >
> > > > > easier to use to input Shavian letters.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =========> >
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
> >
> > Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
> Bob McBroom Woodstock NY- /byb /mk/brMm /wUdstak /nV /jDk"wun
simbel iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid evrIwun atacez H sEm mIniN tM
it." - /JPJ /bxnRd /SY
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

In some languages, "<" and ">" are sometimes mistakenly used as
quatation markers (the proper characters are "‹" and "›"), but it's
still important to have them handy. They're useful for relating
inequalities and necessary for HTML. I would actually suggest moving
them up closer to the number row, if at all.

Anyway, I'm reminded of a site I found on using evolutionary algorithms
to generate a more efficient keyboard layout
(http://www.visi.com/~pmk/evolved.html). This method could also be
applied to Shavian for those of us who wish to try such a layout (and
are comfortable enough with the code to make it work).
It won't be a replacement for those learning Shavian (and may not even
be very good), but it could make a decent alternative for someone who
favors efficiency and speed over familiarity and ease of learning.

Regards,
Joseph Spicer
·𐑡𐑴𐑕𐑧𐑓 𐑕𐑐𐑲𐑕𐑼

On Jun 17, 2005, at 9:55 AM, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Star
>
> Let me offer an alternate location that is more consistent with a
> simple to remember Keyboard mapping scheme.
> Look below the current Semi-Colon Key. On the bottom row of keys,
> there is a Comma Key and a Period Key (Full Stop)
> Why not make Shift Comma equal to the Semi-Colon
> and Shift Period equal to the Colon
> The existing "<" and ">" signs are not used as Punctuation in English,
> and will not be missed.
> As the Semi-Colon can be used a Super Comma. (See revious usage notes)
> and a Colon is used to represent a slightly less than Full Stop,
> there is a logical association, that makes it easy to remember the
> location of these 2 Keys. Not to mention, they both look alike.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. Aficionados are rare but hardy breed. I will try not to under-
> estimate their influence in the future.

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Scott Harrison <nik@m...> wrote:
Hi Joseph
Thank you for even minded ness and for clarifying the use of a < > as
brackets.
Now as to extra punctuation and numeric symbols.
We have to realize that with the coming of the computer age, Data
processing, Markup Languages and Internet HTML pages, a lot of
otherwise useless signs have been press ganged into serving a wide
variety of other purposes. Some have become Control Characters.
The @ sign is now used to indicate sub-addresses under a web-page.

Just because, these signs have been given new life, for a variety of
computer related purposes, does not preclude there use as new Shavian
letters.
Mathematical equations need a times or multiplication operator.
In normal typing we just use a lower case x. (5 x 11 = 55)
Just because, we use x as a multiplication operator, doesn't prevent
me from understanding it as a letter (Xerox) or even as a variable
name (x = 5 x 11 so x = 55). So how do we do all that?

Regards, Paul V.
______________attached__________________________________
> On Jun 17, 2005, at 15:54, Joseph Spicer wrote:
>
> > In some languages, "<" and ">" are sometimes mistakenly used as
> > quatation markers (the proper characters are "‹" and "›"),
but it's
> > still important to have them handy. They're useful for relating
> > inequalities and necessary for HTML. I would actually suggest
moving
> > them up closer to the number row, if at all.
> >
> > Anyway, I'm reminded of a site I found on using evolutionary
> > algorithms to generate a more efficient keyboard layout
> > (http://www.visi.com/~pmk/evolved.html). This method could also
be
> > applied to Shavian for those of us who wish to try such a layout
(and
> > are comfortable enough with the code to make it work).
> > It won't be a replacement for those learning Shavian (and may not
even
> > be very good), but it could make a decent alternative for someone
who
> > favors efficiency and speed over familiarity and ease of learning.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Joseph Spicer

Once again, I don't think that we will be any better off losing any
punctuation. We have 48 Shavian letters. With 46 keys on the keyboard
between numbers, letters and punctuation, I believe that we can surely
find a place for all of our letters. Using only the roman letter keys
we have 26 letters and shifted, 52. Do we really have to lose any
punctuation?

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:

> Hi Star
>
> Let me offer an alternate location that is more consistent with a
> simple to remember Keyboard mapping scheme.
> Look below the current Semi-Colon Key. On the bottom row of keys,
> there is a Comma Key and a Period Key (Full Stop)
> Why not make Shift Comma equal to the Semi-Colon
> and Shift Period equal to the Colon
> The existing "<" and ">" signs are not used as Punctuation in
> English,
> and will not be missed.
> As the Semi-Colon can be used a Super Comma. (See revious usage
> notes)
> and a Colon is used to represent a slightly less than Full Stop,
> there is a logical association, that makes it easy to remember the
> location of these 2 Keys. Not to mention, they both look alike.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. Aficionados are rare but hardy breed. I will try not to under-
> estimate their influence in the future.
> ________________________attached__________________________________
>
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
> <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > In that case, why not keep all the punctuation on the shifted top
> row
> > keys? Eh, I'm willing to try it.
> >
> > --Star, the aficionado
> >
> > --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Star
> > >
> > > Let's leave aside the Programming aspect for the moment and look
> at
> > > the
> > > usage of the Colon and Semi-colon in Normal English writing.
> > > I believe they are rarely used and so can be moved with few tears
>
> to
> > > the less easily used Upper case, requiring the Shift Key.
> > > I didn't wish to pick a key for them at this point, until we have
>
> > > settled on which keys are assigned to the more important Shaw
> > > Letters.
> > > This method of Change is actually derived from a Programming
> > > technique
> > > called Stepwise Refinement.
> > > I am quite certain that your husband would be familar with it.
> > >
> > > So when would we need a Colon?
> > > According to the Wikipedia
> > > Colons are most commonly used to introduce lists.
> > > Colons are also used after the salutation in a formal letter.
> > > They are also occasionally used to connect a broad idea with a
> > > specific
> > > example: two related sentences can be separated by colons instead
>
> of
> > > periods or semicolons. Colons may also be used to introduce a
> direct
> > > quote.
> > > In any of these cases, a colon can only be used if the clause
> > > preceding
> > > the colon is independent.
> > > In effect, Colons are used a formal Marker of of certain common
> > > Sentence constructs, used in business or scientific situations.
> > >
> > > So when would we need a Semi-Colon?
> > > According to the Wikipedia
> > > Generally, it is used to bind together two sentences more closely
> > > than
> > > they would be if separated by a full stop.
> > > It often replaces a conjunction such "as", "and" or "but". A
> writer
> > > might consider this appropriate where they are trying to indicate
>
> a
> > > close relationship between two sentences, or a 'run-on' in
> meaning
> > > from
> > > one to the next; they don't wish the connection to be broken by
> the
> > > abrupt use of a full-stop.
> > > Occasionally in formal or business letters, it is used as a kind
> of
> > > Super-comma.
> > > It is used as a way of indicating a longer pause than a comma
> would,
> > > in order to make the meaning clear in a sentence where commas are
>
> > > already being used for other purposes.
> > > A common example of this use is to separate the items of a list
> when
> > > some of the items themselves contain commas.
> > > For example, "There are several Burger Houses in Atlanta,
> Georgia;
> > > Greenville, South Carolina; Pensacola, Florida; and Mobile,
> Alabama."
> > >
> > >
> > > In effect, Semi-Commas are used in 2 situations. In the first
> when
> > > the
> > > writer prefers not to formally link two sentences with a
> Conjunction.
> > >
> > > This is common in casual speech, so the writer might be just
> > > providing
> > > Dialogue, for example.
> > > This way, the Author can still indicate some kind of dependence
> > > between
> > > the two sentences.
> > >
> > > Secondly, as way of keeping his commas straight, when he is
> > > separating
> > > order pairs or ordered triples.
> > >
> > > As we can plainly see, Semi-colons and Colon are optional extras
> in
> > > ordinary English writing. Nice to have, but rarely used except by
>
> > > aficionados.
> > >
> > > Anyway, I will add them to the bottom of the list of essential
> > > puntuation keys.
> > > In particular, the Semi-Colon seems more useful than the Colon.
> > > Comments?
> > >
> > > Regards, Paul V.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Star Raven
> > > <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > > > The only problem I have is where you have used the punctuation
> as a
> > > > letter. I'm guessing that you have alternate places for these
> to
> > > be?
> > > My
> > > > dear husband who is a programmer uses the semicolon quite a
> bit, as
> > > > well as the plus sign and I'm a writer who uses the semicolon
> and
> > > colon
> > > > on occasion. I would hate to see these things lost.
> > > >
> > > > --Star
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =========> >
> > http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad
> >
> > Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Sports
> > Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> > http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>


=========
http://www.livejournal.com/users/wodentoad

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi All,

I just joined the list. I've been interested in the Shavian alphabet
after stumbling upon on the web a couple of years ago. Now that I have
a little free time on my hands, and have a mini project I'd like to
write in Shavian so I'm going to give it a whirl.

I'll be writing something brief (probably less than 100 words) for the
last weekend in July. It will be a set on instruction for someone to
follow to get to a specific location. If someone would be willing to
proof read my little project, I'd be greatly appreciative.

Alexis

OK.I couldn't wait. here's my very first attempt. I used Ghoti Fingers.
any critique would be greatly appreciated. I think I'm using too many
letters.

wYk TxtI pEsez nPT t H lRJ Ok.

Uleksiz

P.S. Did I get my name right? :-)

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Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 14:30:29 UT

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n dM V rWlI sD jUD nEm wiH a "z" At H end?
jes, V R rFt; mF nEm SUd hAv bIgun wiT H "u" sQnd.
pUtN H "z" sQd At H end v mF nEm wuz DoN Az wel.
F tend t OvD emfusFz H fFnUl "s" sQd wen F sE it slOlI, Az pIpl Yftn kYl
mI /ulek"su".
F kAnt tel V hQ muc Fv enJqd His eksxsFz. Fm bIginN t lxn H kADiktxz.
F Tink rIJnl dFalekts plE E lRJ pRt in H funl pDydukt.
Fm hAvN tDubl wiT H "D". F prOnQns H sQnd At H bginN v TAt wxd Az
"u"-"rE" wiT H emfusis on H "rE". mYr lFk "uh"- rE
usFd fum wxd fY wxd trAnslESun, R TX enI eksDsFses V wUd rekOmend?

--uleksis

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Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2005 14:45:51 UT

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