Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser
From: stbetta@...
Date: 2005-07-17 19:20:04 #
Subject: Shaw's 1941 description of Shavian
Toggle Shavian
_http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/shaw-pref.html_
(http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/shaw-pref.html)
Here is an old page about Shaw's 1941 preface to Wilson's book
where he describes the design paramaters for a parallel writing system.
_http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/shaw-pref-2.html#alphabet_
(http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/shaw-pref-2.html#alphabet)
-Steve
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2005-07-18 21:49:25 #
Subject: Re: Typography for the computer screen
Toggle Shavian
Hi John
You raise an number of important issues, that we touched on a while
back when talked about employing some of the obsolete accent and
punctuation keys.
Since the Shavian Alphabet requires a new Keyboard Mapping it
behooves us to make sure that we have all the Punctuation signs and
other accoutrements of Clear/Clean writing at our fingertips.
First remember Capitalization is gone. and indentation is up in the
air. Also there are all those other writing conventions,
(Abbreviations, Contractions, Acronyms, Omonophia, etc) which have
been developed using the Roman letters. How will they work with the
Shavian Phonetic Alphabet?
I think a subset of them will work well. But we have to spell out
what works, what doesn't and what has to be changed.
First, Acronyms. The Shavian Letter names cannot be used for Acronyms.
Most of them are words, with there own meanings. They can can be
written but how the heck would you pronounce them aloud. We need a
set of Shavian Letter names that can be used for writing Acronyms.
Roman based Acronyms will just have to be written phonetically.
While I think many of your concerns require a full discussion,
let me just hit the high points to start things going.
1. I like Double quotes. They will have to be higher for the Tall
letters.
2. Since we don't have Capitalization and indentation is tricky.
Why don't we start all paragraphs and wherever convenient new
sentences at the beginning of a line.
We can put a half blank line between Paragraphs. I like using bold
and italic fonts.
Remember lines are wider and narrower with Shavian text.
Perhaps, concatenated words of all kinds can be seperated with an
apostrophe or hyphen.
I will continue my response at a later time.
Regards, Paul V.
__________________attached___________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, John Burrows <burrows@t...>
wrote:
> I've been following recent e-mails with interest, but am currently
more
> concerned with the appearance of the Shaw alphabet.
I have re-worked some of Androcles, whch is the only
> model available. That is a play, complete with stage directions,
and uses
> are found for italics and bold texts, for which there are separate
font
> faces, as well as for plain and square brackets. When I turned to
Jane
> Austen, hoping for a plain text stream, rather like listening to a
book
> being read aloud, I found there were other problems.
I want the output to
> look nice, but if it is too smooth and regular it will be difficult
to
> read.
More specifically, which effects are needed and which choices must I
> make from those below :--
> Emphatic punctuation with curved commas and apostrophes or straight
lines
> and single quotes
> Emphasis through bold, italics, underlining or continental style
l i k e t h i s, or Turkish like (this).
> What about abbreviations? (Mr. Bingley, Mr Bingley, mr Bingley,
mister
> Bingley, M:R, m-r)
> Portait or landscape?
What is the ideal line length for Shavian?
> The __shire militia. They lived at Wh_rt_n.
looong vowels. lloudd sounds.
> Concatenation of words, at least in speech : He maybe coming at
fiveoclock
> tomorrowafternoon.
> jb
From: stbetta@...
Date: 2005-07-19 03:01:18 #
Subject: Elaborate on the shape differences in vowels and consonants in the Shaw alpahbet
Toggle Shavian
Paul,
Can you answer Jon's question?
Steve
--- In openrite@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
>
>
> > 2. (PV) In an ideal alphabet, Vowel letters would be easily
> > distinguishable from Consonant letters. Interestingly, both the
> > Shavian and the Roman Alphabet appear to to make this distinction.
> > At least in Lower case Roman Letters, the vowel letters are
> > smaller,simpler centrally located symbols. (a,e,i,o,oo,u,w)
> > Only the letter "c" seems to break this rule. It resembles a Vowel
> > letter instead of the Consonant letter that it actually is.
>
> JON: Do you know the kind of sound it has which causes it to
resemble a
> vowel rather than a consonant?
> SB: We will ask Paul.
From: "Ph.D." <phil@...>
Date: 2005-07-19 04:23:46 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Elaborate on the shape differences in vowels and consonants in the Shaw alpahbet
Toggle Shavian
It seems Paul meant that the letter c has the shape of a vowel,
not the sound of one.
----- Originala Mesagxo -----
De: stbetta@...
Al: openrite@yahoogroups.com
K-oj: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com ; pvandenbrink@sprint.ca
Sendita: Lundon, 18an de julio 2005, 11:00 ptm
Temo: [shawalphabet] Elaborate on the shape differences in vowels and consonants in the Shaw alpahbet
Paul,
Can you answer Jon's question?
Steve
--- In openrite@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
>
> > 2. (PV) In an ideal alphabet, Vowel letters would be easily
> > distinguishable from Consonant letters. Interestingly, both the
> > Shavian and the Roman Alphabet appear to to make this distinction.
> > At least in Lower case Roman Letters, the vowel letters are
> > smaller, simpler centrally located symbols. (a,e,i,o,oo,u,w)
> > Only the letter "c" seems to break this rule. It resembles a Vowel
> > letter instead of the Consonant letter that it actually is.
>
> JON: Do you know the kind of sound it has which causes it to
> resemble a vowel rather than a consonant?
From: Ethan <ethanl@...>
Date: 2005-07-19 04:32:16 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] Elaborate on the shape differences in vowels and consonants in the Shaw alpahbet
Toggle Shavian
stbetta@... wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Can you answer Jon's question?
>
> Steve
>
> --- In openrite@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> >
> >
> > > 2. (PV) In an ideal alphabet, Vowel letters would be easily
> > > distinguishable from Consonant letters. Interestingly, both the
> > > Shavian and the Roman Alphabet appear to to make this
> distinction.
> > > At least in Lower case Roman Letters, the vowel letters are
> > > smaller,simpler centrally located symbols. (a,e,i,o,oo,u,w)
> > > Only the letter "c" seems to break this rule. It resembles
> a Vowel
> > > letter instead of the Consonant letter that it actually is.
> >
> > JON: Do you know the kind of sound it has which causes it to
> resemble a
> > vowel rather than a consonant?
> > SB: We will ask Paul.
>
Well, I'm not Paul, but I think I can answer this, and why not? :)
All Shavian letters are either tall (extending above the mid-line), deep
(descending below the baseline), or short (between baseline and
midline). All but four consonants are either tall or deep, all but one
of the vowels are short. Short consonants are lol, roar, mime, and nun;
the only tall vowel is yew, actually a semivowel/vowel compound. Thus
if I type the consonants, then vowels, in alphabetical order (what
else!), you can see the difference:
Consonants:
(Unicode)
๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ ๐๐ก๐๐ข๐๐ฃ๐ค๐ฎ๐ฅ๐ฏ
(html - Ghoti font)
pbtdkgfvTHszSZcJjwNhlrmn
Vowels:
(unicode)
๐ฆ๐ฐ๐ง๐ฑ๐จ๐ฒ๐ฉ๐ณ๐ช๐ด๐ซ๐ต๐ฌ๐ถ๐ญ๐ท๐ธ๐น๐บ๐ป๐ผ๐ฝ๐พ๐ฟ
(html - Ghoti)
iIeEAFauoOUMQqyYRPXxDCWV
--
Ethan Lamoreaux - ยท๐ฐ๐๐ฉ๐ฏ ยท๐ค๐จ๐ฅ๐ฉ๐ฎ๐ด
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2005-07-19 05:05:33 #
Subject: Re: Elaborate on the shape differences in vowels and consonants in the Shaw alpahbet
Toggle Shavian
Thanks Ethan & Ph.d
Hi Jon & Steve
Sorry my original point isn't that clear.
Ethan and Philip seem to have picked up on it, tho.
I was talking about the type of phoneme. Vowel versus Consonant.
And I was indeed talking about the Shape and orientation of the Roman
Alphabet letters. (lower case)
And whether there was a relationship between the type of phoneme and
the shape of the Roman Alphabet letter.
Roman Alphabet does have its own equivalent of the Shavian's Tall,
Short and Deep letters
Tall = bdfhklt
Short = aceimnorsuvwxz
Deep = gjpqy
The interesting thing to note is that the Roman vowel letters are all
in the smaller more centrally oriented Short letters. Infact with the
exception of csvxz Short letters, the Other Short letters all have a
vowel pronunciation (syllabic m and n for example.
Also the form of the 5 vowels is usually roundish. I would have
expected the Short round c to be a vowel, if I only considered its
appearance.
It is even more interesting that Shavian perpetuates and makes
consistent in its design a form to function relationship already
inherent (hinted at) in the Roman Alphabet.
Regards, Paul V.
I hope this answers your question?
P.S. Evolution is better than Revolution. And Shavian is the more
highly evolved Alphabet.
___________attached________________________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
>
> Paul,
> Can you answer Jon's question?
>
> Steve
>
> --- In openrite@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> >
> >
> > > 2. (PV) In an ideal alphabet, Vowel letters would be easily
> > > distinguishable from Consonant letters. Interestingly, both
the
> > > Shavian and the Roman Alphabet appear to to make this
distinction.
> > > At least in Lower case Roman Letters, the vowel letters are
> > > smaller,simpler centrally located symbols. (a,e,i,o,oo,u,w)
> > > Only the letter "c" seems to break this rule. It resembles
a Vowel
> > > letter instead of the Consonant letter that it actually is.
> >
> > JON: Do you know the kind of sound it has which causes it to
> resemble a
> > vowel rather than a consonant?
> > SB: We will ask Paul.
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2005-07-22 18:10:01 #
Subject: Axioms - That their is a clear distinction between Vowel and Consonant letters
Toggle Shavian
Hi Steve
I don't know if it is an Axiom, but it is certainly a common
characteristic of some of the more successsful/widespread Alphabets,
that there is a difference in the extent and size of the Vowel
letters in the writing.
Vowels tend to be minimized in both speaking and correspondingly in
the size of the Vowel letters, that represent them.
The Hebrew Alphabet is an extreme case.
Some people say it has no real vowel letters.
But, contrary to the popular view it does have a few vowel letters to
represent the more significant long vowel.
The Vav is used to represent the OAk or OOze sound.
The Yood is used to represent Eat, Age or Ice
And the Hey is used to represent Ash at the end of a word.
The Aleph at the beginning of word, unless followed by a Vav or Yood
is used to represent Ash and occasionally Egg.
The Ayin at the beginning of word, unless followed by a Vav or Yood
is used to represent Ash and rarely Egg or If.
The Yood and Vav are very common.
These 2 letters take very little space. The Yood lookes like a
Apostrophe and the Vav is a straight up and down slash.
Other softer Vowel sounds inside the word are only optionally
represented by dots or a dash under the
Consonant letter.
You can see other example Alphabets with similar characteristics on
www.omniglot.com
Regards, Paul V.
______________________attached_________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
Let's look at the type of phoneme. Vowel versus Consonant letters.
>
> And I was indeed talking about the Shape and orientation of the
Roman
> Alphabet letters. (lower case)
> And whether there was a relationship between the type of phoneme and
> the shape of the Roman Alphabet letter.
>
> Roman Alphabet does have its own equivalent of the Shavian's Tall,
> Short and Deep letters
> Tall = bdfhklt
> Short = aceimnorsuvwxz
> Deep = gjpqy
> The interesting thing to note is that the Roman vowel letters are
all
> in the smaller more centrally oriented Short letters. Infact with
the
> exception of csvxz Short letters, the Other Short letters all have
a
> vowel pronunciation (syllabic m and n for example.
> Also the form of the 5 vowels is usually roundish. I would have
> expected the Short round c to be a vowel, if I only considered its
> appearance.
>
> It is even more interesting that Shavian perpetuates and makes
> consistent in its design a form to function relationship already
> inherent (hinted at) in the Roman Alphabet.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> I hope this answers your question?
> P.S. Evolution is better than Revolution. And Shavian is the more
> highly evolved Alphabet.
> ___________attached________________________________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> > Can you answer Jon's question?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > --- In openrite@yahoogroups.com, stbetta@a... wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > 2. (PV) In an ideal alphabet, Vowel letters would be
easily
> > > > distinguishable from Consonant letters. Interestingly,
both
> the
> > > > Shavian and the Roman Alphabet appear to to make this
> distinction.
> > > > At least in Lower case Roman Letters, the vowel letters
are
> > > > smaller,simpler centrally located symbols.
(a,e,i,o,oo,u,w)
> > > > Only the letter "c" seems to break this rule. It resembles
> a Vowel
> > > > letter instead of the Consonant letter that it actually is.
> > >
> > > JON: Do you know the kind of sound it has which causes it to
> > resemble a
> > > vowel rather than a consonant?
> > > SB: We will ask Paul.
From: Joseph Spicer <wurdbendur@...>
Date: 2005-07-24 23:46:38 #
Subject: An Update
Toggle Shavian
I've finally returned, so I thought I'd post to let everybody know what
I've been up to. Work on the fonts is ongoing, but I hope to have
something useable shortly. When that's done, I'll be applying the
fonts to a digital version of Androcles that I'm working on.
Now that I'm back home, the work should go much faster.
Regards,
Joseph Spicer
ยท๐ก๐ด๐๐ง๐ ยท๐๐๐ฒ๐๐ผ
From: Joseph Spicer <wurdbendur@...>
Date: 2005-07-25 03:16:17 #
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] An Update
Toggle Shavian
I'd be glad to donate some fonts. Unfortunately, though, I use
FontLab, which apparently doesn't allow me to encode any Unicode points
outside of plane 0. If anybody knows a way to do this, please let me
know. If not, I'll just have to find another way to remap them.
But if anybody wants to download and remap any of my fonts, that would
be good, too.
Regards,
Joseph Spicer
ยท๐ก๐ด๐๐ง๐ ยท๐๐๐ฒ๐๐ผ
On Jul 24, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Scott Harrison wrote:
> Speaking of fonts, is anyone interested in donating their Unicode
> Shavian fonts so they can be included in the base set of fonts that
> Apple ships with their machines? There would be no compensation for
> the fonts and I am unsure as how they would actually be integrated (in
> other words, they could be combined into another font, or installed on
> their own). I am sure there would have to be some official paperwork
> to fill out for release, etc. This would be a great opportunity since
> all Apple computers using the latest operating system would be able to
> have Shavian work right out of the box without the users needing to do
> anything. If anyone is interested, please let me know.
>
> --
> Scott
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@...>
Date: 2005-07-25 04:35:28 #
Subject: Back to Joseph
Toggle Shavian
Hi Joseph
Welcome back.
We have been in the Doldrums of Summer, over here. Just too Damn Hot,
even up here in Toronto Canada. The States are cooking.
Without Air-conditioning, we'd be in big trouble.
We were looking at an alternate Shavian Keyboard mapping a little
while ago.
You seemed to be interested. It is mostly tweaking, but you do you
think it is significantly easier to learn and use?
Regards, Paul V.
_____________attached________________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Spicer <wurdbendur@g...>
wrote:
> I've finally returned, so I thought I'd post to let everybody know
what
> I've been up to. Work on the fonts is ongoing, but I hope to have
> something useable shortly. When that's done, I'll be applying the
> fonts to a digital version of Androcles that I'm working on.
>
> Now that I'm back home, the work should go much faster.
>
> Regards,
> Joseph Spicer
> รยทรฐย`ยกรฐย`ยดรฐย`โขรฐย`ยงรฐย`" รยทรฐย`โขรฐย`ยรฐย`ยฒรฐย`โขรฐย`ยผ