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Scott Harrison wrote:
> However, Shavian takes two characters to represent c, and cannot
> represent ^h. Therefore, it is really appropriate to use Shavian for
> Esperanto?

Not the way it's presented in _Androcles_. However, the version I saw
adapted Shavian and gave different values to certain Shavian letters to
correspond to Esperanto phonemes.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



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Scott Harrison wrote:
> What mailers are people using?

At work: Outlook 98, WinNT 4.0
At home: Pegasus Mail, Win98 SE

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Thought I'd butt in here. Hi, I'm new. Blah blah blah, introduce myself. Blah
blah just found out about Shavian the other day, think it's interesting.
Would write this in Shavian, but am too lazy to change the font and sit with
a reference sheet for an hour. :)

Je Merkredo, la 13a de Junio 2001 11:42 pm, Scott Harrison skribis:
> Shavian is not designed to be used with languages other than English.
[snip]
> Therefore, I find it inappropriate to attempt to render French or German in
> Shavian for example.

French needs spelling reform as much as English does. You ever tried to spell
a French word you've only heard? It's impossible! Au ton? Au temps? Autant?
It's somewhat easier to pronounce correctly from unfamiliar written text, but
still not completely consistently. But see below...

> Now with respect to Esperanto, there is no need to use Shavian. It
> already has a one-to-one correspondence of letters to sound except for

The one thing Shavian _does_ have* that's desirable for other languages is a
directly visible correspondence between voiced and unvoiced consonants which
isn't consistently shown in the Roman alphabet. Japanese kana, for instance,
do this clearly and easily with a simple mark on syllables with voiced
consonants to distinguish them from the unvoiced equivalents. In Roman we see
a vague similarity with SZ/sz, and maybe PB/pb, but FV/fv? TD/td? KG/kg? It's
easy to forget the sounds are so closely related when we think of them as
completely different letters. And of course, no need to learn twice as many
letters for those useless capitals.

That said, as you say Shavian per se isn't very appropriate for Esperanto
without two additional consonants - hh (as in Bach, loch) and c (which isn't
exactly t+s) - and revaluing almost all of the relevant vowels (and some
consonants - r is completely different, and d and t should be dentals).
French or German similarly would require different changes.

I would expect that anyone seriously proposing to use Shavian for Esperanto
would modify it suitably, just as the Roman alphabet is modified to suit
every language that uses it (except, sadly, English) by dropping, adding, or
accenting letters.

* Note that the thing I think it's really _missing_ is clear indication for
the stressed syllable. Some English words can only be distinguished by
stress, and unfamiliar words can have randomly-placed stress that leads to
incorrect pronunciation when the reader guesses wrong and then uses the word
in public. That's not relevent for French or Esperanto though, which have
much more regular stress patterns.

-- brion vibber (brion@... / vibber@...)



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Je Merkredo, la 13a de Junio 2001 11:45 pm, Scott Harrison skribis:
> What mailers are people using?

KMail 1.2 (Unix)
It does speak Unicode, as long as I can configure an appropriate font. (Do
any of the Shavian fonts have Shavian in the [temporary] Unicode positions,
but Roman in the Latin-1 area?)

Send something out, we'll see how it looks...

-- brion vibber (brion@... / vibber@...)



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On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 10:19 , Brion L. VIBBER wrote:




Je Merkredo, la 13a de Junio 2001 11:42 pm, Scott Harrison skribis:



I love this ^^^^^^^



Shavian is not designed to be used with languages other than English.


[snip]


Therefore, I find it inappropriate to attempt to render French or German in
Shavian for example.



French needs spelling reform as much as English does. You ever tried to spell
a French word you've only heard? It's impossible! Au ton? Au temps? Autant?
It's somewhat easier to pronounce correctly from unfamiliar written text, but
still not completely consistently. But see below...



Oh how I do know about how French needs spelling reform. I live in Paris and run into the problem where I do not know a word and ask people to spell it because then I can remember it better than just repeating it. However, Shavian in its present form probably should not be used for French. There are sounds in French Shavian does not have. If we were to have French Shavian I would advocate extending the alphabet and adding some new characters for the French sounds. I would not want to remap present Shavian characters to the French sounds as that would cause confusion for those that need to read both.




Now with respect to Esperanto, there is no need to use Shavian. It
already has a one-to-one correspondence of letters to sound except for



The one thing Shavian _does_ have* that's desirable for other languages is a
directly visible correspondence between voiced and unvoiced consonants which
isn't consistently shown in the Roman alphabet. Japanese kana, for instance,
do this clearly and easily with a simple mark on syllables with voiced
consonants to distinguish them from the unvoiced equivalents. In Roman we see
a vague similarity with SZ/sz, and maybe PB/pb, but FV/fv? TD/td? KG/kg? It's
easy to forget the sounds are so closely related when we think of them as
completely different letters. And of course, no need to learn twice as many
letters for those useless capitals.



Agreed. I was impressed with the correspondence in shape of letters with how sounds are formed. Differences between consonants and vowels is also useful.




That said, as you say Shavian per se isn't very appropriate for Esperanto
without two additional consonants - hh (as in Bach, loch) and c (which isn't
exactly t+s) - and revaluing almost all of the relevant vowels (and some
consonants - r is completely different, and d and t should be dentals).
French or German similarly would require different changes.

I would expect that anyone seriously proposing to use Shavian for Esperanto
would modify it suitably, just as the Roman alphabet is modified to suit
every language that uses it (except, sadly, English) by dropping, adding, or
accenting letters.



This seems the logical thing to do. This is the way I would go about doing it. However, if we take this to extremese, are we not just redoing IPA?




* Note that the thing I think it's really _missing_ is clear indication for
the stressed syllable. Some English words can only be distinguished by
stress, and unfamiliar words can have randomly-placed stress that leads to
incorrect pronunciation when the reader guesses wrong and then uses the word
in public. That's not relevent for French or Esperanto though, which have
much more regular stress patterns.

-- brion vibber (brion@... / vibber@...)



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--
Scott Harrison

Hi,

Failed to notice sending this from the wrong account earlier.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Mayhem Elkhound <mayhem@...>
> Date: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:39:33 Europe/Paris
> To: shavian@...
> Subject: Re: [shavian] Outlook Express can do Unicode Shavian mail
>
>
> On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 11:08 , Brion L. VIBBER wrote:
>
>> Je Merkredo, la 13a de Junio 2001 11:45 pm, Scott Harrison skribis:
>>> What mailers are people using?
>>
>> KMail 1.2 (Unix)
>> It does speak Unicode, as long as I can configure an appropriate font.
>> (Do
>> any of the Shavian fonts have Shavian in the [temporary] Unicode
>> positions,
>> but Roman in the Latin-1 area?)
>>
>
> There is a font on my web page that was created by Phillip Driscoll
> that is Arial and Shavian with Roman and Shavian letters in both their
> proper Unicode places. If you download that and install it
> appropriately (it is TrueType) you should be able to read all my UTF-8
> web pages assuming your web browser can be configured to use the font
> for web pages. The same goes for letting your mail app use it. All
> you then need it to be able to generate the Shavian Unicode points when
> you type and you can converse with me via Unicode mail in Shavian.
>
> Oh yeah, if you do not know - the web page is http://www.mithrandir.com
> and then follow the links to Software and Shavian.
>
--
Scott Harrison
>



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Je Jaudo, la 14a de Junio 2001 02:47 am, Scott Harrison skribis:
[on extending Shavian if using it for other languages]
> This seems the logical thing to do. This is the way I would go about
> doing it. However, if we take this to extremese, are we not just
> redoing IPA?

Ultimately, I suppose yes. We may as well just write in IPA and get it over
with. :) Or, of course, redo IPA in a more consistent, logical fashion (à la
Shavian's tall/short and up/down distinctions). Right now it seems at times
like a hodgepodge of random characters, quite frightening to behold.

But then, when you need to list thousands of possible sound variations,
things to get a bit complicated. :(

> There is a font on my web page that was created by Phillip Driscoll
> that is Arial and Shavian with Roman and Shavian letters in both their
> proper Unicode places.

Hot diggity, thanks! On my way now...

-- brion vibber (brion@... / vibber@...)



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Well, I hope I don't destroy anyone's computer doing this... ^_^

Begin test:
[???? ? ???????!]
[??? ?? ? ???? ? ????? ?? ·??????.]
End test.

Should have read (but in actual Shavian):
[helM t evrIwan!]
[His iz a test v SEvWn in ·VnikMd.]

Let me know if your screen melted, if it seemed to be okay, or if... the
consequences are too terrible to contemplate. (Note that in some cases you
may need to force your mail reader or web browser into using the UTF-8
encoding. Some programs may just not like Unicode however.)

(Scott: I'm having trouble with cshaws2u.ttf - the Roman characters show up
as empty blocks instead of letters. I'll test it on Windows in the morning,
it may be a problem with the TrueType rendering library I have.)

-- brion vibber (brion@... / vibber@...)



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--- In shavian@y..., Philip Newton <philip.newton@d...> wrote:
> teraiten@y... wrote:
> > 'uu'
>
> I think that's pronounced similar to the German 'ü', isn't it? If
so, it's
> not particularly close to the English sound in "bOOk". Sorry.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip

Yes it is. Too bad.

Ewout




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Eudora 5.0

Paige Gabhart

At 08:45 AM 6/14/01 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
> I have tested Outlook Express on Windows NT with the keyboard
>driver I made that outputs Shavian at its "proper" Unicode points. I
>can both send and receive Shavian mail in Unicode with it. This means
>one can freely mix Shavian and Roman characters in the same text without
>silly font changes.
>
> What mailers are people using?
>
>--
>Scott Harrison
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





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