Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

well, like I said, I'm from the south, and there seems to be some
difference. That would be for clarification, but perhaps its like any
other homophones written out in shavian, words must be read in context.

Examples of this include to, two, too; buy, bye; sew, sow, so; not,
knot; know and no..and so on. In *crazy* Roman spelling the difference
can be read, and is understood when heard. in shavian, there is no
difference (which was, of course, Shaw's original intent.

Now, there are obviously some pronunciation differences between English
and American pronunciation, how ever slight--differences which the
*English* inventors of the alphabet did not either notice or take into
account. I see this as just one of those things where Americans will
just have to deal with it. There are, I believe, nearly two hundred
different sounds used in languages that are also not taken into account
by shavian. This includes the jewish "kh" and the American "wh" sounds
not to mention the various clicks and pops in other languages, or the
extended syllables or other emphasis which can change the meaning of a
word.

There really has never been a 200 symbol alphabet to include all of the
strange sounds the human voice can make, nore is there really a reason
to create one. It is almost like reading ancient hebrew, where there
are no vowels. Thn gn, f y nw th lngj, y shd b bl t rd wtht vwls...
right?

Hoorah for shavian
--Star

--- usmaak <usmaak@...> wrote:
> This pronunciation thing is a killer. When I pronounce perFECT vs.
> PERfect, I pronounce the ect the same way. I don't say PERfict, I
> say PERfect. I can agree to a certain way to handle this for the
> sake of legibility, but it will be different than the way that I
> pronounce the word.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Star Raven
> To: shavian@...
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [shavian] Falling Into A Trap!
>
>
> There is a way to do this, Reminders, I am an American from the
> southern states:
>
> Perfect (v): Peep, Err, Fief, Egg, Kick, Tot
> Perfect (n): Peep, Err, Fief, If, Kick, Tot
>
> This seems to work, but I can really find no shavian symbol to
> distinguish beteween Err and Urge, both words are used
> interchangeably,
> there for it is like that of Roman spelling, and must be read in
> context.
>
> --Star
>


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-Frank Lebowitz

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Here is what I would write: perFECT = pDfekt, PERfect = pxfekt
Also: PERVERT = pxvxt, perVERT = pDvxt

Why not just use 'array' for the first (unstressed) syllable in 'perFECT'/'perVERT', and 'err' for the first (stressed) syllable in 'PERfect'/'PERVERT'? Using D instead of x (and also a instead of u) allows the reader to know where the stress ISN'T.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Falling Into A Trap!

To me, they have a difference in pronunciation, but only on the stress of the syllables. He had to perfect his kitchen stresses on the last syllable. Perfect nature stresses on the first syllable. In your opinion, how should it be done.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Falling Into A Trap!

As I thought. There are several issues that arise from this.

There are two meanings of 'perfect'. As I say them, one has the stress on the 'per' bit (e.g. perfect nature), and the other has the stress on the 'fect' bit (e.g. he had to perfect his kitchen). Do you pronounce them the same?

Also, the same question with 'pervert'. Do the verb (e.g. pervert the course of justice) and noun (e.g. what a complete pervert) versions of the word have no difference in pronunciation?

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Falling Into A Trap!

Ohh, I wanna try too!!

fPwxd: H /restrYntIr hAd t pxfekt hiz kitcen, Az it kUd not gO fPwRd wiTQt a pxmit. hI wUd not pxmit enI Old pxvxt trFiN t pxvxt H pxfekt nEtcx v hiz merI lital dYtx /mArI.

I am from near Boston, but have lived near Chicago for ten years now. What do you think?

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: [shavian] Falling Into A Trap!


I am sure that I am falling into a trap for Hugh, but here goes:

Foreword: The Restauranteur had to perfect his kitchen, as it could not go forward without a permit. He would not permit any old pervert trying to pervert the perfect nature of his merry little daughter Mary.

My mid Ohio (with Kentucky roots) rendering: (avoiding as many of the r ligatures as I can)

fOrwad: H /retrantar hAd tM parfekt' hiz kicin, Az it kUd not gO fOrward wiTQt a parmit. hI wUd not parmit enI Old parvart trFiN tM parvart H parfekt nEcar v hiz mErI lital dotar /mErI.

bF H wE, F did diskavar F waz VziN y fOr Q... (Ups!)

/rik





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--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> Here is what I would write: perFECT = pDfekt, PERfect = pxfekt
> Also: PERVERT = pxvxt, perVERT = pDvxt
>
> Why not just use 'array' for the first (unstressed) syllable in
> 'perFECT'/'perVERT', and 'err' for the first (stressed) syllable in
> 'PERfect'/'PERVERT'? Using D instead of x (and also a instead of u)
> allows the reader to know where the stress ISN'T.
>
> Hugh

Of course! Thanks go to Hugh. Urge and Array use a more similar sound
than Err and Urge. This was where I tripped as I was looking for the
"array" sound.

-- Star

=====
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Frank Lebowitz

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/hV n aTxz,

wF avqd sxtin r ligatjxz?

F ges H mEn rIsan iz "difrent strOks fP difrent fOks."

Az a mAtx v fAkt, F Am VziN sam v H ligatjxz. aHxz sIm t hAv nO Vs in H wE F spIk.

F kAn hIr absOlMtlI nO difrens in H tM vxSanz v pxfekt P pxvxt eksept in stes. F dM Vz H tM kombinESanz t distiNwiS px (wat a kAt daz) fram pEr (wic is swItx HAn An Apal.)

wFl konfesiN, F ylsO mast Admit t VziN "b" Az a kontrAkSn fP bI. (F'l probablI get dramd Qt v H kP fP HAt wan!)

F dM hAv wan kwescan: wat sQnd t Vz fP H vQl sQnd in "ran" - the past tense of run. t mF Ir it iz a mac harsx sQnd HAn H "A" in At, bat F dOn't sIm t hAv enI aHx cqs.

yl in fan,

/rik



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I guess that perhaps I don't understand the Array sound. To me, the "A" in Array sounds like the "U" in Up. In fact, if I were to spell out Array in Shavian, it would look like this... urE, or I guess it could also be arE. Because of this confusion on my part, I don't think that I have actually used the Array character in anything I have written or type. Another character that I use rarely is ah. For instance, instead of saying fyHx, I say fYHx. I am pretty new to all of this. I have been working with it for over a year now, but have just begun following the posts in this group in a regular fashion. I am sure that this has been brought up thousands of times in the past, but what is the solution to these kinds of things?

-skYt

----- Original Message -----
From: Star Raven <mailto:celestraof12worlds@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Falling Into A Trap!


--- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@... <mailto:h.birkenhead@...> > wrote:
> Here is what I would write: perFECT = pDfekt, PERfect = pxfekt
> Also: PERVERT = pxvxt, perVERT = pDvxt
>
> Why not just use 'array' for the first (unstressed) syllable in
> 'perFECT'/'perVERT', and 'err' for the first (stressed) syllable in
> 'PERfect'/'PERVERT'? Using D instead of x (and also a instead of u)
> allows the reader to know where the stress ISN'T.
>
> Hugh

Of course! Thanks go to Hugh. Urge and Array use a more similar sound
than Err and Urge. This was where I tripped as I was looking for the
"array" sound.

-- Star

=====
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Frank Lebowitz

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First of all where you are from helps on the understanding of certain sounds, it has taken me a while to understand the difference Array and Err is that of stress more than pronuciation. Array uses the U/R combination, while Err uses the shwa/R. This is like the difference between the Ah and Awe sounds. F-awe-th-er or F-ah-th-er is the pronunciation slip up that can occure here. Awe has the "w" sound. This is also a problem between Up and Ado. Up is the u sound, which is more stressed that the shwa, which is the unstressed syllable. --Star PS. Could someome explain what Newromanji is? --- usmaak wrote: > I guess that perhaps I don't understand the Array sound. To me, the > "A" in Array sounds like the "U" in Up. In fact, if I were to spell > out Array in Shavian, it would look like this... urE, or I guess it > could also be arE. Because of this confusion on my part, I don't > think that I have actually used the Array character in anything I > have written or type. Another character that I use rarely is ah. > For instance, instead of saying fyHx, I say fYHx. I am pretty new to > all of this. I have been working with it for over a year now, but > have just begun following the posts in this group in a regular > fashion. I am sure that this has been brought up thousands of times > in the past, but what is the solution to these kinds of things? > > -skYt

"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Frank Lebowitz



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sI balO koments...

----- Original Message -----
From: Flyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: Shavian Group <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:42 AM
Subject: [shavian] Falling into a Trap...

/hV n aTxz,

wF avqd sxtin r ligatjxz?

F ges H mEn rIsan iz "difrent strOks fP difrent fOks."

Az a mAtx v fAkt, F Am VziN sam v H ligatjxz. aHxz sIm t hAv nO Vs in H wE F spIk.

F kAn hIr absOlMtlI nO difrens in H tM vxSanz v pxfekt P pxvxt eksept in stes. F dM Vz H tM kombinESanz t distiNwiS px (wat a kAt daz) fram pEr (wic is swItx HAn An Apal.)

HX iz nO difDans batwIn H tM wxdz iksept in stres. mF pqnt iz, H stres mEks H difDans in HOz wxdz. HAt's wF HX R 'x' n 'D', n 'u' n 'a' - HE alQ HOz spOkan difDansaz t bI prazxvd in /SEvIan.

wFl konfesiN, F ylsO mast Admit t VziN "b" Az a kontrAkSn fP bI. (F'l probablI get dramd Qt v H kP fP HAt wan!)

a fV jCz agO F Vst t Vz 'f' n 'w' instead v 'fP' n 'wiH'. HAt sMn dFd Qt Az nO wun els Vzd Hem n F didnt wont t kanfVz enIbodI.

F dM hAv wan kwescan: wat sQnd t Vz fP H vQl sQnd in "ran" - the past tense of run. t mF Ir it iz a mac harsx sQnd HAn H "A" in At, bat F dOn't sIm t hAv enI aHx cqs.

"rAn"? sEm vQl Az "hAt", "kAt", "/plAn", "mAn", ets.

yl in fan,

/rik


GhV


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I'll think on the stress for a bit... I understand your point, but
had not understood the occasional writing I had seen on the voiced,
vs the unvoiced or the stressed vs unstressed forms. I mostly have
chosen one of the forms for several of the common sounds.

I was not quite sure if this were a difference in received English vs
the midwest form I speak. I know many were excited about the Wheat
sound in Quickscript so they did not have to write an hw to represent
the difference. Since I have never pronounced (and seldom heard) a w
any but one way... it didn't seem too important.

What you say makes sense, but I must admit to needing to brush up on
the differences. To wit:

I understand the difference between ah and awe.
I understand the difference between oo of foot and ou of too.
I understand the difference between oil and out

The rest are up for grabs. Two er s that sound alike? From what you
say, in pervert (the verb) the ar comes first followed by er. What
do you use for the very common -er in so many word endings?? Do you
use one when it is the stressed sylable and the other when it is
not? Same for a vs u. Read dropped the difference. Is the u used
in the non stressed while the a is used in the stressed sylable?

Sorry for the Roman... Too tired to use the Shavian.

/rik

--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> sI balO koments...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flyfisher
> To: Shavian Group
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:42 AM
> Subject: [shavian] Falling into a Trap...
>
>
> /hV n aTxz,
>
> wF avqd sxtin r ligatjxz?
>
> F ges H mEn rIsan iz "difrent strOks fP difrent fOks."
>
> Az a mAtx v fAkt, F Am VziN sam v H ligatjxz. aHxz sIm t hAv nO
Vs in H wE F spIk.
>
> F kAn hIr absOlMtlI nO difrens in H tM vxSanz v pxfekt P pxvxt
eksept in stes. F dM Vz H tM kombinESanz t distiNwiS px (wat a kAt
daz) fram pEr (wic is swItx HAn An Apal.)
> HX iz nO difDans batwIn H tM wxdz iksept in stres. mF pqnt iz, H
stres mEks H difDans in HOz wxdz. HAt's wF HX R 'x' n 'D', n 'u'
n 'a' - HE alQ HOz spOkan difDansaz t bI prazxvd in /SEvIan.
> wFl konfesiN, F ylsO mast Admit t VziN "b" Az a kontrAkSn fP bI.
(F'l probablI get dramd Qt v H kP fP HAt wan!)
> a fV jCz agO F Vst t Vz 'f' n 'w' instead v 'fP' n 'wiH'. HAt sMn
dFd Qt Az nO wun els Vzd Hem n F didnt wont t kanfVz enIbodI.
> F dM hAv wan kwescan: wat sQnd t Vz fP H vQl sQnd in "ran" - the
past tense of run. t mF Ir it iz a mac harsx sQnd HAn H "A" in At,
bat F dOn't sIm t hAv enI aHx cqs.
> "rAn"? sEm vQl Az "hAt", "kAt", "/plAn", "mAn", ets.
> yl in fan,
>
> /rik
>
> GhV
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.



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hF Yl,

Just wen wI wx stRtiN t get sum gUd konvxsESanz gOiN, HE R gOiN t Sut dQn /jyhM grMps fP H wIkend fP mEntanens. wut kFnd v "mEntanens" tEks tM P mP dEz??

-skYt

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See below for comments...

----- Original Message -----
From: geoflyfisher <mailto:geoflyfisher@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 12:35 AM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Falling into a Trap...

I'll think on the stress for a bit... I understand your point, but
had not understood the occasional writing I had seen on the voiced,
vs the unvoiced or the stressed vs unstressed forms. I mostly have
chosen one of the forms for several of the common sounds.

I was not quite sure if this were a difference in received English vs
the midwest form I speak. I know many were excited about the Wheat
sound in Quickscript so they did not have to write an hw to represent
the difference. Since I have never pronounced (and seldom heard) a w
any but one way... it didn't seem too important.

In most British dialects, 'array' and 'err' do sound slightly different on their own - 'err' is a slightly longer vowel than 'arr'. But the basic difference that IS common to both British and American dialects is the stress.

What you say makes sense, but I must admit to needing to brush up on
the differences. To wit:

I understand the difference between ah and awe.
I understand the difference between oo of foot and ou of too.
I understand the difference between oil and out

The rest are up for grabs. Two er s that sound alike? >From what you
say, in pervert (the verb) the ar comes first followed by er. What
do you use for the very common -er in so many word endings?? Do you
use one when it is the stressed sylable and the other when it is
not? Same for a vs u. Read dropped the difference. Is the u used
in the non stressed while the a is used in the stressed sylable?

I would use 'array' for the very common '-er' in word endings. The stress of the word very rarely falls on that last syllable so it should almost never be 'err' (except perhaps in some French words such as 'Coiffeur', 'Chauffeur'). The 'array' vs 'err' issue is completely applicable to 'ado' vs 'up' - 'ado' is unstressed while 'up' is stressed. Consider the rare word 'abut': I'm sure you'll agree the stress falls on the SECOND syllable, therefore the word would be written as 'abut'. Rather than thinking of it as the 'up' telling you where the stress IS, think of it as the 'ado' telling you where the stress ISN'T. Use this 'non-stress' rule in every word you write, and you should automatically know every instance when 'ado' should be used.

Sorry for the Roman... Too tired to use the Shavian.

Ditto... it is 4:30 in the morning here. Burning the midnight oil doesn't even begin to describe it!

/rik

/hV

--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> sI balO koments...
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Flyfisher
> To: Shavian Group
> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 1:42 AM
> Subject: [shavian] Falling into a Trap...
>
>
> /hV n aTxz,
>
> wF avqd sxtin r ligatjxz?
>
> F ges H mEn rIsan iz "difrent strOks fP difrent fOks."
>
> Az a mAtx v fAkt, F Am VziN sam v H ligatjxz. aHxz sIm t hAv nO
Vs in H wE F spIk.
>
> F kAn hIr absOlMtlI nO difrens in H tM vxSanz v pxfekt P pxvxt
eksept in stes. F dM Vz H tM kombinESanz t distiNwiS px (wat a kAt
daz) fram pEr (wic is swItx HAn An Apal.)
> HX iz nO difDans batwIn H tM wxdz iksept in stres. mF pqnt iz, H
stres mEks H difDans in HOz wxdz. HAt's wF HX R 'x' n 'D', n 'u'
n 'a' - HE alQ HOz spOkan difDansaz t bI prazxvd in /SEvIan.
> wFl konfesiN, F ylsO mast Admit t VziN "b" Az a kontrAkSn fP bI.
(F'l probablI get dramd Qt v H kP fP HAt wan!)
> a fV jCz agO F Vst t Vz 'f' n 'w' instead v 'fP' n 'wiH'. HAt sMn
dFd Qt Az nO wun els Vzd Hem n F didnt wont t kanfVz enIbodI.
> F dM hAv wan kwescan: wat sQnd t Vz fP H vQl sQnd in "ran" - the
past tense of run. t mF Ir it iz a mac harsx sQnd HAn H "A" in At,
bat F dOn't sIm t hAv enI aHx cqs.
> "rAn"? sEm vQl Az "hAt", "kAt", "/plAn", "mAn", ets.
> yl in fan,
>
> /rik
>
> GhV
>
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