Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

OK, fixed it. Try it again.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Some material to feast on...!


> Link requested Error 404 not found
> --star
>
> --- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> > It's about time there was a bit of nice reading material for you all
> > to chomp on. Here are a few items I knocked up yesterday that might
> > prove fun to read. They are written in the Shaw Roman no.1 font
> > (available here), just as a change from the Ghoti and Lionspaw fonts
> > we're all used to. If anyone wants even more fonts, I can post links
> > to every Shavian font I know in my next posting.
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
> =====
> "Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book
publications."
> -Frank Lebowitz
>
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This file I recently dug up.

It contains a comparison of various reforms for English. You will need a few fonts in order to view it properly. These are:

SILDoulousIPA - search the web for this font, it is widely available.
Ghoti - Most Shavian Web sites have this font
Jerome - Most Quickscript sites have this font, it is also
in the group files section of
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet
Unifon - Get it at Unifon.org

Okay, this is a rather old file, and I believe much of it is incorrect. Correction will be much appreciated. I'm very incertain about the grey colored areas.

As you will see I differentiate between 'posh' and 'US' pronunciations. Posh is English the way I learn it in school. It believe it is also called 'Recieved Pronunciation (RP)' or 'Queen's English'. 'US' simply means that all 'r' sounds are pronounced. This is more or less 'TV-English' as I call it (in Holland there are many American TV series with subtitles, dubbing is very rare in here. Only little children who can't read get dubbed shows. More than 50% of Dutch TV on the so called 'commercielen', commercial channels, consists of English shows)

You will also notice the 'A ribbel' sound. 'ribbel' is Dutch for crincle or something. The true symbol I was looking for is a script 'a' with a nasalisation mark above it (similar to the tilde sign). This sound is very rare in English but it was included in the phonetics part of my dictionary.

And for completeness I have also included the 'loch' sound.

Tell me what you think.

/EvQt stym

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OK, fixed it. Try it again.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Some material to feast on...!


> Link requested Error 404 not found
> --star
>
> --- Hugh Birkenhead <h.birkenhead@...> wrote:
> > It's about time there was a bit of nice reading material for you all
> > to chomp on. Here are a few items I knocked up yesterday that might
> > prove fun to read. They are written in the Shaw Roman no.1 font
> > (available here), just as a change from the Ghoti and Lionspaw fonts
> > we're all used to. If anyone wants even more fonts, I can post links
> > to every Shavian font I know in my next posting.
> >
> > Hugh
>
>
> =====
> "Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book
publications."
> -Frank Lebowitz
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> http://movies.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



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Bob,

Considering the number of errors that were made in the
transcription that appears in the book, Androcles and
the Lion, there may not be any experts on Shavian
usage.

As you say,
t is the Shavian logogram or abbreviation for to /tM/.
n is the logogram for and /And/

With stress marking, "any" can be written /'enI/
This is the reverse of ITA conventions /'eni/ where I
= the short I

Without stress marking, we need a rule.
How do we express an unstressed vowel?
In English, a short vowel cannot be used in an open
vowel terminal position. So [ni] has to be i: or ai
--not mih. "defi erni"

Spanglish gets around the problem by interpreting the
terminal y as a schwi. "Wi gaeranti enny prodduct."
If more stress was required, which it isn't here,
it would be gaerantie.
REF: http://www.unifon.org/sp3.html

Regards,

Steve

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
> Actually, I don't recall making any of the changes
> you mentioned, except for the tM, which (sorry) I
> just realized should have been just 't'.

> That aside, I tend to look at Shavian as a phonemic
> rather than a phonetic system, although the fact
> that the shwa is supported kind of
> requires you to face some subjective issues.
> So, were it not for the
> built-in abbreviation, I would probably stick with
> tM [for to], even if I don't
> pronounce it exactly that way in ordinary speech.

> Still, I now see your
> point in originally choosing tU; I had thought it
> was merely due to
> mixing up the functions of M and U. And I'm
> certainly not an expert on
> Shavian usage. --Bob

> --- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> > Bob,
> > Good job.
Your efforts have inspired me to spend more
time in upgrading this page. Thank you for
catching the transcription errors. --Steve

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

Gettysburg Address

fPskP n sevan jirz agO, Qr fyHDz brYt fPT on His
kontinant a nV nESan, kansIvd in libDtI n dedikEtad t
H propasISan HAt Yl men R krIEtad Ikwal. nQ wI R
engEJd in a grEt sivil wP, testiN weHD HAt nESan P enI
nESan sO kansIvd n sO dedikEtad kAn loN endVr. wI R
met on a grEt bAtalfIld v HAt wP. wI hAv kum tM
dedikEt a pPSan ov HAt fIld Az a fFnal restiN plEs fP
HOz hM hC gEv Hx lFvz HAt HAt nESan mFt liv. it iz
YltMgeHD fitiN n propD HAt wI SUd dM His.

=====


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Bob,

Considering the number of errors that were made in the
transcription that appears in the book, Androcles and
the Lion, there may not be any experts on Shavian
usage.

As you say,
t is the Shavian logogram or abbreviation for to /tM/.
n is the logogram for and /And/

With stress marking, "any" can be written /'enI/
This is the reverse of ITA conventions /'eni/ where I
= the short I

Without stress marking, we need a rule.
How do we express an unstressed vowel?
In English, a short vowel cannot be used in an open
vowel terminal position. So [ni] has to be i: or ai
--not mih. "defi erni"

Spanglish gets around the problem by interpreting the
terminal y as a schwi. "Wi gaeranti enny prodduct."
If more stress was required, which it isn't here,
it would be gaerantie.
REF: http://www.unifon.org/sp3.html

Regards,

Steve

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
> Actually, I don't recall making any of the changes
> you mentioned, except for the tM, which (sorry) I
> just realized should have been just 't'.

> That aside, I tend to look at Shavian as a phonemic
> rather than a phonetic system, although the fact
> that the shwa is supported kind of
> requires you to face some subjective issues.
> So, were it not for the
> built-in abbreviation, I would probably stick with
> tM [for to], even if I don't
> pronounce it exactly that way in ordinary speech.

> Still, I now see your
> point in originally choosing tU; I had thought it
> was merely due to
> mixing up the functions of M and U. And I'm
> certainly not an expert on
> Shavian usage. --Bob

> --- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> > Bob,
> > Good job.
Your efforts have inspired me to spend more
time in upgrading this page. Thank you for
catching the transcription errors. --Steve

--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

Gettysburg Address

fPskP n sevan jirz agO, Qr fyHDz brYt fPT on His
kontinant a nV nESan, kansIvd in libDtI n dedikEtad t
H propasISan HAt Yl men R krIEtad Ikwal. nQ wI R
engEJd in a grEt sivil wP, testiN weHD HAt nESan P enI
nESan sO kansIvd n sO dedikEtad kAn loN endVr. wI R
met on a grEt bAtalfIld v HAt wP. wI hAv kum tM
dedikEt a pPSan ov HAt fIld Az a fFnal restiN plEs fP
HOz hM hC gEv Hx lFvz HAt HAt nESan mFt liv. it iz
YltMgeHD fitiN n propD HAt wI SUd dM His.

=====


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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/transcriptions/shaw-alfa.html

Bob,

Here is the revised page with your transcription of
the Gettysburg Address.

Thanks again for your help.

Steve


--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

=====


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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/transcriptions/shaw-alfa.html

Bob,

Here is the revised page with your transcription of
the Gettysburg Address.

Thanks again for your help.

Steve


--- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

=====


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Where did this conversation begin?

I've a feeling we've missed a lot of what was going on here. :-/

It looks interesting though.

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bett" <stbett@...>
To: "Bob Schmertz" <rschmertz@...>
Cc: <spanglish@...>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 6:20 AM
Subject: [shavian] short function words and [any] in Shavian


> Bob,
>
> Considering the number of errors that were made in the
> transcription that appears in the book, Androcles and
> the Lion, there may not be any experts on Shavian
> usage.
>
> As you say,
> t is the Shavian logogram or abbreviation for to /tM/.
> n is the logogram for and /And/
>
> With stress marking, "any" can be written /'enI/
> This is the reverse of ITA conventions /'eni/ where I
> = the short I
>
> Without stress marking, we need a rule.
> How do we express an unstressed vowel?
> In English, a short vowel cannot be used in an open
> vowel terminal position. So [ni] has to be i: or ai
> --not mih. "defi erni"
>
> Spanglish gets around the problem by interpreting the
> terminal y as a schwi. "Wi gaeranti enny prodduct."
> If more stress was required, which it isn't here,
> it would be gaerantie.
> REF: http://www.unifon.org/sp3.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
> > Actually, I don't recall making any of the changes
> > you mentioned, except for the tM, which (sorry) I
> > just realized should have been just 't'.
>
> > That aside, I tend to look at Shavian as a phonemic
> > rather than a phonetic system, although the fact
> > that the shwa is supported kind of
> > requires you to face some subjective issues.
> > So, were it not for the
> > built-in abbreviation, I would probably stick with
> > tM [for to], even if I don't
> > pronounce it exactly that way in ordinary speech.
>
> > Still, I now see your
> > point in originally choosing tU; I had thought it
> > was merely due to
> > mixing up the functions of M and U. And I'm
> > certainly not an expert on
> > Shavian usage. --Bob
>
> > --- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> > > Bob,
> > > Good job.
> Your efforts have inspired me to spend more
> time in upgrading this page. Thank you for
> catching the transcription errors. --Steve
>
> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
>
> Gettysburg Address
>
> fPskP n sevan jirz agO, Qr fyHDz brYt fPT on His
> kontinant a nV nESan, kansIvd in libDtI n dedikEtad t
> H propasISan HAt Yl men R krIEtad Ikwal. nQ wI R
> engEJd in a grEt sivil wP, testiN weHD HAt nESan P enI
> nESan sO kansIvd n sO dedikEtad kAn loN endVr. wI R
> met on a grEt bAtalfIld v HAt wP. wI hAv kum tM
> dedikEt a pPSan ov HAt fIld Az a fFnal restiN plEs fP
> HOz hM hC gEv Hx lFvz HAt HAt nESan mFt liv. it iz
> YltMgeHD fitiN n propD HAt wI SUd dM His.
>
> =====
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> http://movies.yahoo.com/
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
> Access Your PC from Anywhere
> It's Easy. It's Fun. - Free Download.
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/BxtVhB/7XkDAA/_ZuFAA/mx3olB/TM
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Where did this conversation begin?

I've a feeling we've missed a lot of what was going on here. :-/

It looks interesting though.

Hugh


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Bett" <stbett@...>
To: "Bob Schmertz" <rschmertz@...>
Cc: <spanglish@...>
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 6:20 AM
Subject: [shavian] short function words and [any] in Shavian


> Bob,
>
> Considering the number of errors that were made in the
> transcription that appears in the book, Androcles and
> the Lion, there may not be any experts on Shavian
> usage.
>
> As you say,
> t is the Shavian logogram or abbreviation for to /tM/.
> n is the logogram for and /And/
>
> With stress marking, "any" can be written /'enI/
> This is the reverse of ITA conventions /'eni/ where I
> = the short I
>
> Without stress marking, we need a rule.
> How do we express an unstressed vowel?
> In English, a short vowel cannot be used in an open
> vowel terminal position. So [ni] has to be i: or ai
> --not mih. "defi erni"
>
> Spanglish gets around the problem by interpreting the
> terminal y as a schwi. "Wi gaeranti enny prodduct."
> If more stress was required, which it isn't here,
> it would be gaerantie.
> REF: http://www.unifon.org/sp3.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
>
> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
> > Actually, I don't recall making any of the changes
> > you mentioned, except for the tM, which (sorry) I
> > just realized should have been just 't'.
>
> > That aside, I tend to look at Shavian as a phonemic
> > rather than a phonetic system, although the fact
> > that the shwa is supported kind of
> > requires you to face some subjective issues.
> > So, were it not for the
> > built-in abbreviation, I would probably stick with
> > tM [for to], even if I don't
> > pronounce it exactly that way in ordinary speech.
>
> > Still, I now see your
> > point in originally choosing tU; I had thought it
> > was merely due to
> > mixing up the functions of M and U. And I'm
> > certainly not an expert on
> > Shavian usage. --Bob
>
> > --- Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:
> > > Bob,
> > > Good job.
> Your efforts have inspired me to spend more
> time in upgrading this page. Thank you for
> catching the transcription errors. --Steve
>
> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
>
> Gettysburg Address
>
> fPskP n sevan jirz agO, Qr fyHDz brYt fPT on His
> kontinant a nV nESan, kansIvd in libDtI n dedikEtad t
> H propasISan HAt Yl men R krIEtad Ikwal. nQ wI R
> engEJd in a grEt sivil wP, testiN weHD HAt nESan P enI
> nESan sO kansIvd n sO dedikEtad kAn loN endVr. wI R
> met on a grEt bAtalfIld v HAt wP. wI hAv kum tM
> dedikEt a pPSan ov HAt fIld Az a fFnal restiN plEs fP
> HOz hM hC gEv Hx lFvz HAt HAt nESan mFt liv. it iz
> YltMgeHD fitiN n propD HAt wI SUd dM His.
>
> =====
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®
> http://movies.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Hugh Birkenhead wrote a while ago:
> unfPcanatlI F woz rFt, H pravFdD v H webspEs F woz VziN
> hAz stopt its frI sxvis. >:(
>
> His wil mIn F nId t fFnd anuHD frI webspEs pravFdD HAt
> alQz H Vs v CGI skriptiN; F wUd Vz Gb.t. GintDnet, mF
> pxsanal websFt hOst, but HE dM not alQ suc skriptiN.
>
> if V nO v enI suc pravFdDz, plIz let mI nO, Az F hAv not
> fQnd enITiN jet! F wil kIp lUkiN HO.

Have you found anything yet, Hugh? Otherwise I could probably offer hosting
at shavian.org which does allow CGI scripts.

Cheers,
Philip
shavian.org webmaster
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.