Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

<http://www.unifon.org/shaw-herder-air.gif> [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD [hX mXdD]

The curved decender [e] is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x] What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r. or eir.
The airline made an error might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html

Steve

You're obviously 100% correct. This argument holds much more water than that which suggested that 'h' and 'N' were reversed. I don't recall it being discussed before, but if we take a quick peek at Quickscript, we can see instantly that the symbols have been flipped so as to be the 'right' way round.

However, I should add that no error in the Alphabet, whether obvious or perceived (Cf: the 'hung-haha' issue), should ever be 'corrected'. It would constitute a fundamental deviation from 'Androclesian' Shavian; the published alphabet is, for most Shavian users, the only one thing that can be said to be truly constant.

Someone add this to Shavian's 'cute little glitches' list:)

Hugh
www.mixsynth.btinternet.com <http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett <mailto:stbett@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> ; saundspel@... <mailto:saundspel@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

<http://www.unifon.org/shaw-herder-air.gif> [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD [hX mXdD]

The curved decender [e] is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x] What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r. or eir.
The airline made an error might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Steve Bett <stbett@...>
Aan: shavian@... <shavian@...>;
saundspel@... <saundspel@...>
Datum: zondag 9 december 2001 0:48
Onderwerp: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

[...SNIP...]

[...
Hmm. I don't really understood Shavian ligatures like this after I found out
about Quikscript.

The air sound is IPA [e@r] (even if you don't pronounce the r, always write
it in shavian if it's written in TO!) I pronouce it as some sort of
prolonged IPA [3]. You could say it's followed by something like a schwa [@]
and even an r in rhotic accents (or did rhotic mean without r? It's a little
late and my mind's getting sleepy.)

In Quikscript, Air is written Er (yup, that's two separate letters,
connected in handwriting).

In Quikscript, Err and Array are merged, considered to be one. The
difference is stress, I guess. I think that Err is IPA [3:r] and Array is
IPA [@r]

Anyway, with Quikscript, the only distinction is made between air and array.
I can't mistake those. And there is Ear. Those sounds are clearly
distinguished in Dutch, for example in these words:

eer (sounds like ear)

water (the 'er' sounds like array)

er (sounds like air but less in length)

In the Dutch spelling system there is the 'short e' and the 'long e'. 'Long
e' is Shavian E, and 'short e' is Shavian e. When the 'long e' is followed
by an r it changes. This change is regular.

If you want to hear me pronounce these words, contact me and I'll create
some wav-files for you.

Maybe this'll help you understand the IPA vowels. I wanna study it closely
too.

http://www.sil.org/computing/speechtools/softdev2/IPAhelp2/ipavowel2.htm

Ewout



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Steve

You're obviously 100% correct. This argument holds much more water than that which suggested that 'h' and 'N' were reversed. I don't recall it being discussed before, but if we take a quick peek at Quickscript, we can see instantly that the symbols have been flipped so as to be the 'right' way round.

However, I should add that no error in the Alphabet, whether obvious or perceived (Cf: the 'hung-haha' issue), should ever be 'corrected'. It would constitute a fundamental deviation from 'Androclesian' Shavian; the published alphabet is, for most Shavian users, the only one thing that can be said to be truly constant.

Someone add this to Shavian's 'cute little glitches' list:)

Hugh
www.mixsynth.btinternet.com <http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett <mailto:stbett@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> ; saundspel@... <mailto:saundspel@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

<http://www.unifon.org/shaw-herder-air.gif> [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD [hX mXdD]

The curved decender [e] is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x] What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r. or eir.
The airline made an error might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html






----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett <mailto:stbett@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> ; saundspel@... <mailto:saundspel@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

<http://www.unifon.org/shaw-herder-air.gif> [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD [hX mXdD]

The curved decender [e] is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x] What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r. or eir.
The airline made an error might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html






----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett <mailto:stbett@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...> ; saundspel@... <mailto:saundspel@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: [shavian] Did Read make a mistake?

<http://www.unifon.org/shaw-herder-air.gif> [shaw-herder-air]

I think the chart published in Androcles . . . may have air and err reversed.
Can someone please clarify this for me?

An r shaped forward curve [ a] is associated with schwa [a]
The shape for air appears to have two of them.

[X] from the shape, it appears that what is labeled <air> is either @@r or @ir
The associated sound would be as in her or something like "uh-ear"
In other words her murder /h3 m3d@/ would be written hX mXda [hX mXda]
or hX mXdD [hX mXdD]

The curved decender [e] is associated with [e]
The shape captioned err has two of them or one could be the shape for [i]

[x] What is labeled "err" appears to be a combinations of the shapes for eh + eh + r. or eir.
The airline made an error might be written
Ha xlFn mEd An xD [Ha xlFn mEd An xD]

I am sure that this has probably been discussed before.
How was the problem resolved?

Regards,

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-alfa.html

Hugh,

Thanks for finding some additional support for the argument that
the compound symbols for the vowels in <heard> /h3rd/ and <hair>
/heir/ were reversed.

I checked Androcles and it appears that heard /h3rd/ is consistently
spelled haired /heird/.

So we stick with the established convention and have to forget about
using the logic behind the phonograms shapes.

----

Unike the err-air reversal, the ha-ha [h] hung [N] reversal was not
corrected in Quick Script.

The logic of having all talls represent unvoiced consonants was
evidently not as strong as that of having consistent component shapes.

voiced-unvoiced chart
http://www.unifon.org/48sax-fonogram.gif

----

I wonder if there are any other independent ways to verify this.

The reason I ask is that it appears that some of the letterforms may
have been deliberately obscured, e.g., dh and th. I would have made
the dh similar to the crossed D in icelandic and the th like the
thorn. This is probably not a good example because the the th in
thigh is unvoiced and therefore would have to be a tall.

----

Steve
http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples.html



--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> Steve
>
> You're obviously 100% correct. This argument holds much more water
than that which suggested that 'h' and 'N' were reversed. I don't
recall it being discussed before, but if we take a quick peek at
Quickscript, we can see instantly that the symbols have been flipped
so as to be the 'right' way round.
>
> However, I should add that no error in the Alphabet, whether obvious
or perceived (Cf: the 'hung-haha' issue), should ever be 'corrected'.
It would constitute a fundamental deviation from 'Androclesian'
Shavian; the published alphabet is, for most Shavian users, the only
one thing that can be said to be truly constant.
>
> Someone add this to Shavian's 'cute little glitches' list:)
>
> Hugh


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

On the George Bernard Shaw Page
http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.htm
there is a nonsense paragraph that
Shaw [1941] used to show the
superiority of a unigraphic script.

I have made my own transcription but
I would like for others to try their
hand at it and then compare their transcription what I have posted at
http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples

--Steve

THE TRANSCRIPTION CHALLENGE

Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge
at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his
billiards so highly. Quick! quick! hear the queer story how father and
son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the
tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast
to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by
the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor
boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless
empty instinct ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo.

Steve

http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples



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Maybe a dialectal difference? Yay for dialects, they make the world go
'round!

Love and luck,
A silly American,
Star

> Thanks for finding some additional support for the argument that
> the compound symbols for the vowels in <heard> /h3rd/ and <hair>
> /heir/ were reversed.
>
> I checked Androcles and it appears that heard /h3rd/ is consistently
> spelled haired /heird/.
>
> So we stick with the established convention and have to forget about
> using the logic behind the phonograms shapes.


=====
"Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications."
-Fran Lebowitz

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--- In shavian@y..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
> On the George Bernard Shaw Page
> http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.htm
> there is a nonsense paragraph that
> Shaw [1941] used to show the
> superiority of a unigraphic script.
>
> I have made my own transcription but
> I would like for others to try their
> hand at it and then compare their transcription what I have posted at
> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples
>
> --Steve
>
> THE TRANSCRIPTION CHALLENGE
>
> Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge
> at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his
> billiards so highly. Quick! quick! hear the queer story how father and
> son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the
> tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast
> to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by
> the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor
> boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless
> empty instinct ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo.
>
> Steve
>
> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples

There has already been such a challenge:
http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/shawtest.html

But after having submitted my entry over a year ago, I find the page has not been updated recently, so here's my try at it, in my Northern New York State dialect:

/cEN At lIZD wuz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H bXWl in /mXWn /skwX v /hFpCWn H /ElWn hM vAlVd hiz bilIDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tMgeHD sxvd bF H kXID, hMz nXOD mFnd HrM bC wuz sP n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlis emptI instiNkt ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO.



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--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> Maybe a dialectal difference? Yay for dialects, they make the world go
> 'round!
>
> Love and luck,
> A silly American,
> Star

Perhaps. Noah Webster actually proposed pronouncing the word 'heard' as hCd, rhyming with 'beard'. Unfortunately, it never caught on.



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I made it some time ago too. I'm more of a quickscript user, but I'll try to
find it and then post it.


This is more or less my pronunciation, but I made it when I was quite a
novice, so it could use some correction.

I too would like to contribute, especially because I'm no native speaker of
English. I'm Dutch myself and I have a somewhat 'posh' accent. Being Dutch I
can cleary distinguish awe, on and ah, but I have trouble pronouncing ash
and and the oo in wool. I do know when to use them (so they are transcibed
correctly). Furthermore my written TO English is better than my spoken
English, for I read more English than I hear. For some words I could only
have guessed the pronunciation (I was too lazy to get a dictionary). Anyway,
it could be interesting to see how close I am to Androcles.


/cAN At leZD wyz sMperiD t /liS in hiz rMZ, munSiN a cOzenZ At H berWl in
/merion /skwX v /hFperion H ElWn hM vAlVd hiz biljDdz sO hFli. kwik! kwik!
hC H kwC stPi hQ fyHD n son wyn tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN
H tEl v H fir on H rOd t H siti bF H sI fylOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM
fAHamz dIp. HX HE livd tageHD sxvd bF H kAriD, hMz nAlOD mFnd TrM bC wyz sP
n hMz pP bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNDiN in a tANal v tAktlas enpti
instiNkt, ineptli swylOiN kwRts v stiNgO.

Many Dutch people have this Dutch accent in their English. It can still be
understood but sounds very odd. I can try to rewrite this text in Dutch
accent too. Anyone interested?

Ewout Stam [/EvQt /stym]
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: nerd525 <spizzgat@...>
Aan: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Datum: donderdag 24 januari 2002 20:35
Onderwerp: [shavian] Re: Shavian Transcription Challenge


>--- In shavian@y..., Steve Bett <stbett@y...> wrote:
>> On the George Bernard Shaw Page
>> http://www.unifon.org/shaw-pref.htm
>> there is a nonsense paragraph that
>> Shaw [1941] used to show the
>> superiority of a unigraphic script.
>>
>> I have made my own transcription but
>> I would like for others to try their
>> hand at it and then compare their transcription what I have posted at
>> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples
>>
>> --Steve
>>
>> THE TRANSCRIPTION CHALLENGE
>>
>> Chang at leisure was superior to Lynch in his rouge, munching a lozenge
>> at the burial in Merrion Square of Hyperion the Alien who valued his
>> billiards so highly. Quick! quick! hear the queer story how father and
>> son one time sat in the house man to man eating bread and telling the
>> tale of the fir on the road to the city by the sea following the coast
>> to its fall full two fathoms deep. There they lived together served by
>> the carrier, whose narrower mind through beer was sore and whose poor
>> boy shivered over the fire all day lingering in a tangle of tactless
>> empty instinct ineptly swallowing quarts of stingo.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> http://www.unifon.org/writing-samples
>
>There has already been such a challenge:
>http://members.aol.com/RSRICHMOND/shawtest.html
>
>But after having submitted my entry over a year ago, I find the page has
not been updated recently, so here's my try at it, in my Northern New York
State dialect:
>
>/cEN At lIZD wuz sMpCID t /linc in hiz rMZ, munciN a lozanJ At H bXWl in
/mXWn /skwX v /hFpCWn H /ElWn hM vAlVd hiz bilIDdz sO hFlI. kwik! kwik! hC H
kwC stPI hQ fyHD n sun wun tFm sAt in H hQs mAn t mAn ItiN bred n teliN H
tEl v H fx on H rOd t H sitI bF H sI folOiN H kOst t its fYl fUl tM fAHamz
dIp. HX HE livd tMgeHD sxvd bF H kXID, hMz nXOD mFnd HrM bC wuz sP n hMz pP
bq SivDd OvD H fFD Yl dE liNgDiN in a tANgal v tAktlis emptI instiNkt
ineptlI swolOiN kwPts v stiNgO.
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>



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