Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Newton, Philip <philip.newton@...>
Aan: 'shavian@...' <shavian@...>
CC: 'Steve Bett' <stbett@...>; Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...>;
saundspel@... <saundspel@...>
Datum: woensdag 27 maart 2002 19:27
Onderwerp: Re: [shavian] Difference between y and o in Shavian


>I read this in the "Shavian" yahoogroup; not sure where it came from
>originally, so I'm CC'ing all the people in the original message.
>
>> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:
>>
>> > as an American, I don't see any difference between
>> > 'y' and 'o', and would never use 'y' for any English
>> > word to reflect my own pronunciation.
>>
>> > If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
>> > phonemically distinct in some dialect (presumably RP),
>> > I'd be interested in knowing about that.
>
>One minimal triplet might be "bot", "baht" (Thai currency unit), and
>"bought": the first is "bot" in RP, the second is "byt", and the third is
>"bYt". Or "cot", "cart", and "cought" in RP (which is not rhotic); a
literal
>representation in Shavian would be "cot/cyt/cYt"
>. (However, I use Shavian to
>mark up what's basically a rhotic variant of RP, so it would instead be
>"cot/cRt/cYt". Similar with "dot/dart/daughter".)
>
>"Bother" and "father" is another example: "boHD" vs "fyHD". Or "lost" and
>"last": "lost" vs "lyst". Or "Pom" vs "palm": "pom" vs "pym". Or "loft" vs
>"laughed": "loft" vs "lyft". Or "foster" vs "faster": "fostD" vs "fystD".

These are excellent.

>
>Is that any help? I can't really explain it; my father speaks RP and I just
>grew up with it, so I know where the distinctions are -- but I can imagine
>it might be difficult for someone who doesn't make the distinctions
natively
>to know which vowel would go where in RP.

Because of my Dutch background, I can hear the difference. The difference
between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding. The tounge doesn't change position, all
that changes is the form of the lips. The difference between 'o' and 'Y' is
length, and a small change of tounge position. But only a very small change.
The sound of 'Y' is the first sound of 'q' (oi), and then lengthened.
Memorise the tounge-position and try to compare words.

/EvQt stym



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Ewout,

Thanks for your contribution.

"The difference between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding."

The message originated in an exchange between myself
and Bob Schmertiz who was helping me transcribe the
Gettysberg Address for my Shavian page. I thought
some of the problems we were having were of general
interest so I copied them to both the Shavian and the
Saundspel {phonology forum} discussion groups.

Let me invite anyone with a Shavian or Quickscript
page to link it thru the "saundspel" ring
http://p.webring.com/hub?ring=saundspel
Any page with information on the phonemic
transcription of English qualifies.

I think you are arguing that even GA speakers use y in
the yi /oi/ diphthong. [q] in Shavian.

The page we are trying to get right can be viewed at
the following URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/Shaw-Alphabet/shaw-alfa.html

Steve

--- Ewout Stam <teraiten@...> wrote:
>
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Re: [shavian] Difference between y and o in Shavian
>

> >I read this in the "Shavian" yahoogroup; not sure
> where it came from originally> >
> >> --- Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@...> wrote:

> >> > as an American, I don't see any difference
> between
> >> > 'y' and 'o', and would never use 'y' for any
> English
> >> > word to reflect my own pronunciation.
> >>
> >> > If you can enlighten me on how these sounds are
> >> > phonemically distinct in some dialect
> (presumably RP),
> >> > I'd be interested in knowing about that.
> >
> >One minimal triplet might be "bot", "baht" (Thai
> currency unit), and
> >"bought": the first is "bot" in RP, the second is
> "byt", and the third is
> >"bYt". Or "cot", "cart", and "cought" in RP (which
> is not rhotic); a
> literal
> >representation in Shavian would be "cot/cyt/cYt"
> >. (However, I use Shavian to
> >mark up what's basically a rhotic variant of RP, so
> it would instead be
> >"cot/cRt/cYt". Similar with "dot/dart/daughter".)

"Bother" and "father" is another example: "boHD" vs
"fyHD". Or "lost" and
"last": "lost" vs "lyst". Or "Pom" vs "palm": "pom"
vs "pym". Or "loft" vs
"laughed": "loft" vs "lyft". Or "foster" vs "faster":
"fostD" vs "fystD".
>
> These are excellent.
> Because of my Dutch background, I can hear the
> difference. The difference
> between 'o' and 'y' is lip rounding. The tounge
> doesn't change position, all
> that changes is the form of the lips. The difference
> between 'o' and 'Y' is
> length, and a small change of tounge position. But
> only a very small change.
> The sound of 'Y' is the first sound of 'q' (oi), and
> then lengthened.

> /EvQt stym



=====


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Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



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Michael,

This is a sensible idea. I have at present only one scanning of my own handwriting. It's accessible through the 'Advanced' page on my Shavian site - http://www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk/shavian/. It is rather faint I'm afraid, but I scanned it years ago. I shall try to scan in some more soon.

To tell you the truth though, I haven't tried writing Shavian much for a long time. I only ever use it online these days.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Fitzgerald <mailto:mchlf@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 5:49 PM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



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I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked. I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Fitzgerald <mailto:mchlf@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



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Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked. I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Fitzgerald <mailto:mchlf@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



________________________________

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I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters. I agree that there are places where it would link nicely. I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked. I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Fitzgerald <mailto:mchlf@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



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Kingsley Read at the end of Androcles: "Avoid linking letters unnaturally. There is no need to link letters at all. But it frequently happens that the end of one letter naturally runs into the beginning of another; and the alphabet is so designed that this cannot produce alternative readings."

So basically, if you really feel that joining two letters would be more comfortable than not joining them, go ahead. If it doesn't feel natural, don't do it.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters. I agree that there are places where it would link nicely. I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked. I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Fitzgerald <mailto:mchlf@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



________________________________

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Bingo Hugh, that's the exact quote I was looking for! Thanks. Now I will start playing around with joining them.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Kingsley Read at the end of Androcles: "Avoid linking letters unnaturally. There is no need to link letters at all. But it frequently happens that the end of one letter naturally runs into the beginning of another; and the alphabet is so designed that this cannot produce alternative readings."

So basically, if you really feel that joining two letters would be more comfortable than not joining them, go ahead. If it doesn't feel natural, don't do it.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I think I actually read somewhere not to link the letters. I agree that there are places where it would link nicely. I will look through all the stuff I've downloaded on Shavian to see if I can find the source of my misunderstanding.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:h.birkenhead@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

Shavian links very well! Normally you can tell when characters are supposed to be linked. Basically, any two characters that link EASILY with one another can be linked together. I do it, but sometimes I do it so much that it's barely legible to anyone else (like when I'm writing notes to myself).

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: usmaak <mailto:usmaak@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Written examples

I thought that Shavian was not supposed to be linked. I can think of certain cases where linking would be easier, but I have always avoided it.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Fitzgerald <mailto:mchlf@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [shavian] Written examples

Hullo, It looks like a lot of people are working with ways of typing in Shavian, but I would be interested to see examples of how people are handwriting it - how letters are being linked. Would it be possible to scan some examples and either post them as bitmaps or on a website somewhere? thanks, Michael



________________________________

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Hi,

I have just started a new forum for writing in Shavian and
QuickScript. You can find this forum at
http://www.cookeys.net/~shavian/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi. Please check
it out and let me know what you think. If you have any suggestions,
please let me know. This is the first time I have ever done
something like this, so I am sure that there is room for
improvement. ;)

Thanks,

Scott.



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