Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi Star & Bob
Thanks for your help. You both seem quite competent.
I come from Rhotic area (Canada), and we seem to have ironed out some of
the vowel distinctions, that the other folks still use.
I would say "To Air is human", because I pronounce error as
air+er. er = Schwa+r = array
but after your discussion, I suspect that a typical Canadian's monotone
accent doesn't make use of the long a + r for the word air. short e + r
seems to be our standard for the word "air". Maybe we save that sound for
when we are asking for a Bayer Aspirin.
Also Urge doesn't sound like short u + r to me.
It sounds more like an er or more precisely
an extended or lengthened Schwa sound+r.
In the Penguin English dictionary, it is written as upside down e
(schwa) followed by a colon : and r. They seem to be suggesting you can
lengthen the Schwa. Whether or not a lengthened Schwa needs its own letter
is another question. I don't know?
Penguin should be the RP pronunciation.
Funny it seems to match my pronunciation.
Since they published Androcles and the Lion, I suppose we can lean in their
direction, for the moment.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
*********************** attached ***********************************
At 09:23 AM 5/27/02 -0700, you wrote:

>--- Paul Gershon Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> > From my point of view the Schwa is a very different kind of vowel
> > from
> > "up". It is not just a matter of stress.
> > Array and Urge also are quite different, but that difference is less
> > significant. Air and Err sound the same.
> > Any Linguists out there to clear this up.
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
>How about a hobby linguist? :)
>
>Air and Err, at least by my American pronunciations are different as
>the short e (air's non-rhotic equiv) and the short u (err's eqiv) The
>comparison would come between err and array.
>
>Err: short e + r
>Array: schwa + r
>Urge: short u + r
>Air: long a + r
>
>That is the best way I can think to describe it.
>
>--Star
>
>=====
>Defeat is not the worst of failures. Not to have tried is the true failure.
>--George E. Woodberry
>
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--- In shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> The 'if' and 'eat' vowels are the only other vowels I would say are
ever
> used in non-stressed positions (such as
in "sillY", "dEpart", "bEcome",
> "carrYIng").

How about the "yea" sound, as in "Year"? Perhaps it could also be
used as the "half way between ih and ee sound" in -ing. L8r.


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I would call 'yea' a semi-vowel. It is treated entirely like a consonant, even though the sound used is that of a vowel.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: rubik67 <mailto:rubik67@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: schwa-ado and the stressed mid lax vowel - up

--- In shavian@y <mailto:shavian@y> ..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@u <mailto:h.birkenhead@u> ...> wrote:
> The 'if' and 'eat' vowels are the only other vowels I would say are
ever
> used in non-stressed positions (such as
in "sillY", "dEpart", "bEcome",
> "carrYIng").

How about the "yea" sound, as in "Year"? Perhaps it could also be
used as the "half way between ih and ee sound" in -ing. L8r.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Hi Hugh

I would say the Y-sound of Year is the semi-vowel. The remainder of the
word is the i-sound of If attached to the minimal lax unstressed er-sound
of Array.
Some words like beer can be pronounced either bee-er or
bi-er, just as you prefer, and still be recognized. If you split the
difference between the two valid pronunciations, it might rhymn with Year.
The penguin dictionary seems to indicate that the Schwa and the Minimal
er-sound are the only lax vowels needed. For example you could spell
carrying as k-air-ia-ng using the Shaw Alphabet.
I would prefer to use the Schwa sound of Ado instead of that lax i-sound,
and spell it as
k-air-ee-ung, where the u-sound is a extremely short lax Schwa sound.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink

********************** attached **********************************

At 11:32 PM 5/29/02 +0100, you wrote:
>I would call 'yea' a semi-vowel. It is treated entirely like a consonant,
>even though the sound used is that of a vowel.
>
>Hugh
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:rubik67@...>rubik67
>To: <mailto:shavian@...>shavian@...
>Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 4:22 PM
>Subject: [shavian] Re: schwa-ado and the stressed mid lax vowel - up
>
>--- In <mailto:shavian@y>shavian@y..., "Hugh Birkenhead"
><<mailto:h.birkenhead@u>h.birkenhead@u...> wrote:
> > The 'if' and 'eat' vowels are the only other vowels I would say are
>ever
> > used in non-stressed positions (such as
>in "sillY", "dEpart", "bEcome",
> > "carrYIng").
>
>How about the "yea" sound, as in "Year"? Perhaps it could also be
>used as the "half way between ih and ee sound" in -ing. L8r.
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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Ralph,

The ae ligature is not specifically Unicode. It is part of the Latin-1 character set supported by HTML.

I have included a few more experiments in this post. Some more UNICODE and a Shawvian chart.

Regards,

Steve

The SAMPA column includes some Kirshenbaum phonograms. heard=h3d in SAMPA BBC-English

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/GP-tables/14v9n-2.gif>

??æ??????

The next line is the same with the Unicode HTML prefixes--Tell me if this shows up.
??æ??????

<file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/steve%20bett/My%20Documents/spelling/shavian-pairs.gif>

The Shaw Alfabet

This chart designed to help people memorize two correspondences to the Shavian shapes: the key word [and sound] and the keyboard position. Only the non-obvious keyboard equivalents are indicated: e.g., H for the.

The order was devised by Read it is not the typical alphabetical order. It appears to be related to the shape rather than to the sound. I listed the vowel column as short and long but this is not always true. The sound in [up] is short. the sound [ah] can be long and diphthongs [ou, @ir] are always long.

air [@ir] and err [eir] are corrected. They must be reversed to be consistent with Androcles and the Lion.

If you are familiar with the IPA, there is another chart that might be more helpful than this one.

--- RalfSpel@... wrote:

> The Unicode characters do not come through at all > except for the ae ligature.



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Ralph,

The ae ligature is not specifically Unicode. It is part of the Latin-1 character set supported by HTML.

I have included a few more experiments in this post. Some more UNICODE and a Shawvian chart.

Regards,

Steve

The SAMPA column includes some Kirshenbaum phonograms. heard=h3d in SAMPA BBC-English

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saundspel/files/GP-tables/14v9n-2.gif>

??æ??????

The next line is the same with the Unicode HTML prefixes--Tell me if this shows up.
??æ??????

<file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/steve%20bett/My%20Documents/spelling/shavian-pairs.gif>

The Shaw Alfabet

This chart designed to help people memorize two correspondences to the Shavian shapes: the key word [and sound] and the keyboard position. Only the non-obvious keyboard equivalents are indicated: e.g., H for the.

The order was devised by Read it is not the typical alphabetical order. It appears to be related to the shape rather than to the sound. I listed the vowel column as short and long but this is not always true. The sound in [up] is short. the sound [ah] can be long and diphthongs [ou, @ir] are always long.

air [@ir] and err [eir] are corrected. They must be reversed to be consistent with Androcles and the Lion.

If you are familiar with the IPA, there is another chart that might be more helpful than this one.

--- RalfSpel@... wrote:

> The Unicode characters do not come through at all > except for the ae ligature.



________________________________

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--- In shavian@y..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> Finally, even people like you (Star) and me who distinguish
between "very" and "vary" could be excused for pronouncing "err" the
same as "air": I can't think of any other word in the English
language that has a short e followed by an r at the end of a word or
clearly at the end of a syllable.

Let's see... rhyming with "very" we've got berry, Barry, carry,
dairy, ferry, fairy, Gary, Harry, hairy, Larry, Mary, marry, nary,
parry, tarry, vary, and wary, at least. Rhyming with "air" we've got
bear, bare, care, dare, fare, hare, hair, lair, mare, Nair (product),
pear, pare, rare, and ware. That doesn't include multiple consonants
such as stair, stare, their, there, they're, etc, so there's quite a
few out there.

> Looking at the graphic of Androcles and the Lion I found at
> http://www.unicode.org/pending/shavian/proposal/Shavian.html , it
would
> seem that the pronunciation for "err" that Read had in mind was the
one
> that rhymes with "her". In AatL, the "err" grapheme is used in
stressed
> syllables (such as "thirty" or "further") and the "array" grapheme
is used
> in unstressed syllables. Myself, I don't see any need to
distinguish
> these, but that's another thread.

Indeed. IMHO, that was about the worst word he could have chosen to
represent that syllable. Either he should have dropped one of the R's
(giving the "er" "filler" [eg. er, um, uh, etc]) or used a different
word altogether like your afforementioned "her". As for the "array"
character, I've only been using that for words ending with ar, such
as singular, linear, etc and using "err" for the rest of them. L8r.


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Hey Rubik
Since I am trying to use the Schwa and the Schwa based letters as much as
possible, my strategy is to use the Shaw "array" letter whenever possible,
and use the letter "err" only the "err sound is inside a syllable closed
with another consonant, or exceptionally stressed as when it is the only
vowel sound in the word.
For example in the following paired samples
the "err" vowel sound is matched against the "array" vowel sound.
"herd" or "hurt" but not "her"
"burr" or "bert" but not "number"
"fur" or "further" but not "loafer"
"urgent" but not or "urbane"
"turn" or "turban" but not "array"
"dirt" but not "dir-ty"
"birch" or "search" but not "anger" or "girl"

I would consider "err" to be the exceptional case.
This difference is significant, but it is probably not distinguishable
in Canadian English, by the average English speaker.

We don't seem to use the stronger stressed "err" sound in "her",
by the way? Comments anyone?

Any disagreements?

Regards, Paul V.

******************* attached *********************************
At 09:57 PM 6/11/02 +0000, you wrote:
>--- In shavian@y..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> > Finally, even people like you (Star) and me who distinguish
>between "very" and "vary" could be excused for pronouncing "err" the
>same as "air": I can't think of any other word in the English
>language that has a short e followed by an r at the end of a word or
>clearly at the end of a syllable.
>
>Let's see... rhyming with "very" we've got berry, Barry, carry,
>dairy, ferry, fairy, Gary, Harry, hairy, Larry, Mary, marry, nary,
>parry, tarry, vary, and wary, at least. Rhyming with "air" we've got
>bear, bare, care, dare, fare, hare, hair, lair, mare, Nair (product),
>pear, pare, rare, and ware. That doesn't include multiple consonants
>such as stair, stare, their, there, they're, etc, so there's quite a
>few out there.
>
> > Looking at the graphic of Androcles and the Lion I found at
> > http://www.unicode.org/pending/shavian/proposal/Shavian.html , it
>would
> > seem that the pronunciation for "err" that Read had in mind was the
>one
> > that rhymes with "her". In AatL, the "err" grapheme is used in
>stressed
> > syllables (such as "thirty" or "further") and the "array" grapheme
>is used
> > in unstressed syllables. Myself, I don't see any need to
>distinguish
> > these, but that's another thread.
>
>Indeed. IMHO, that was about the worst word he could have chosen to
>represent that syllable. Either he should have dropped one of the R's
>(giving the "er" "filler" [eg. er, um, uh, etc]) or used a different
>word altogether like your afforementioned "her". As for the "array"
>character, I've only been using that for words ending with ar, such
>as singular, linear, etc and using "err" for the rest of them. L8r.
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

> Hey Rubik
> Since I am trying to use the Schwa and the Schwa based letters as much as
> possible, my strategy is to use the Shaw "array" letter whenever possible,
> and use the letter "err" only the "err sound is inside a syllable closed
> with another consonant, or exceptionally stressed as when it is the only
> vowel sound in the word.
> For example in the following paired samples
> the "err" vowel sound is matched against the "array" vowel sound.
> "herd" or "hurt" but not "her"
> "burr" or "bert" but not "number"
> "fur" or "further" but not "loafer"
> "urgent" but not or "urbane"
> "turn" or "turban" but not "array"
> "dirt" but not "dir-ty"
> "birch" or "search" but not "anger" or "girl"

The 'err' sound is used whenever the syllable is stressed, 'array' whenever
it is not. There needn't be any complex rules regarding it at all. All the
examples you list above are OK except: 1) 'herd', 'hurt' and 'her' - 'her'
takes 'err' just the same as all the rest, as the 'err' sound in it is the
*only* sound, therefore is written stressed; 2) 'dirt' and 'dirty' - the
'err' sound in 'dirty' is stressed, with the 'y' sound being unstressed; 3)
'birch', 'search', 'anger' and 'girl' - 'girl' takes 'err' just as 'her'
does.

> I would consider "err" to be the exceptional case.
> This difference is significant, but it is probably not distinguishable
> in Canadian English, by the average English speaker.
>
> We don't seem to use the stronger stressed "err" sound in "her",
> by the way? Comments anyone?

I'd say since it's stressed, 'err' is more appropriate.

Hugh

> Hey Rubik
> Since I am trying to use the Schwa and the Schwa based letters as much as
> possible, my strategy is to use the Shaw "array" letter whenever possible,
> and use the letter "err" only the "err sound is inside a syllable closed
> with another consonant, or exceptionally stressed as when it is the only
> vowel sound in the word.
> For example in the following paired samples
> the "err" vowel sound is matched against the "array" vowel sound.
> "herd" or "hurt" but not "her"
> "burr" or "bert" but not "number"
> "fur" or "further" but not "loafer"
> "urgent" but not or "urbane"
> "turn" or "turban" but not "array"
> "dirt" but not "dir-ty"
> "birch" or "search" but not "anger" or "girl"

The 'err' sound is used whenever the syllable is stressed, 'array' whenever
it is not. There needn't be any complex rules regarding it at all. All the
examples you list above are OK except: 1) 'herd', 'hurt' and 'her' - 'her'
takes 'err' just the same as all the rest, as the 'err' sound in it is the
*only* sound, therefore is written stressed; 2) 'dirt' and 'dirty' - the
'err' sound in 'dirty' is stressed, with the 'y' sound being unstressed; 3)
'birch', 'search', 'anger' and 'girl' - 'girl' takes 'err' just as 'her'
does.

> I would consider "err" to be the exceptional case.
> This difference is significant, but it is probably not distinguishable
> in Canadian English, by the average English speaker.
>
> We don't seem to use the stronger stressed "err" sound in "her",
> by the way? Comments anyone?

I'd say since it's stressed, 'err' is more appropriate.

Hugh


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