Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

I'm not quite sure that this would be called a FAQ of the group (I have been participating for a year) but it seems one of the underlying recurrant themes of newcomers (and veterans) is:

What do you do with Shavian?

Some have used it for personal shorthand.
Some have tried using it to teach English to foreigners.
Some have focused on producing computer programs to read it, translate it, type it faster, etc.
Some have tried to practice in chat rooms (but practice in order to do what?)

And so the big, unanswered question, still sitting there amongst us like a trout in the milk, remains:

Is Shavian practical, or is it just a quirky, eccentric hobby for the idle intelligensia?

I know most of my friends think I'm nuts.

The only response I can offer: I'm exercising my brain to ward off Alzheimer's. That usually brings the topic to an end.






Hello, I'm new to the group (stumbled into it doing research on
spelling reform for a post-grad history-of-the-language seminar)
and am wondering what is available in the way of FAQs. I don't
need the basics, but I would like to know what issues have been
discussed ad nauseum on this list, in summary.

Craig Butz
Athens, Ohio


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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
/wUdstak /nV /jDk


"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
evrIwun atacez H sEm mIniN tM it."
- /JPJ /bxnRd /SY

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Thanks for the responses.

Here are some more questions that occur to me:

Has anyone compiled a dictionary of canonical (Androcles) spellings?

Is there a computer program for converting regular text to Shavian? (I saw
a broken link to such a thing somewhere. If someone knew some Visual Basic,
it wouldn't be difficult to make MS-Word find/replace a whole dictionary.)

What are the names of all available shavian fonts for listing in web page
style sheets?

Has anyone scanned Androcles in its entirety?

Does anyone use the abbreviations beyond the, of, and, to mentioned in the
Notes on Spelling of Androcles?

the of and to for be with he are so do
H v n t f b w h r s d

that was have not this but from had has been were
Ht wz hv nt Hs bt fm hd hz bn wr

--
Craig Butz
Ohio University English Department
Athens, Ohio 45701
740-593-2743






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On Sat, 2002-06-22 at 20:01, Craig Butz wrote:
> Thanks for the responses.
>
> Here are some more questions that occur to me:
>
> Has anyone compiled a dictionary of canonical (Androcles) spellings?
>
> Is there a computer program for converting regular text to Shavian? (I saw
> a broken link to such a thing somewhere. If someone knew some Visual Basic,
> it wouldn't be difficult to make MS-Word find/replace a whole dictionary.)
>

I've written a converter to convert an ASCII file from English to
Shavian, but no one seems to have tried to compile it for Windows, so it
only exists in source code for now. Since discovering that "err" was
supposed to rhyme with "her", I realized the converter was wrong in that
respect, but it's a start anyway. It's at
http://www.geocities.com/rschmertz/Shavian_Converter.html .

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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Hi Hugh
I have to say that I come down strongly on the side of using the Schwa
sound of ado and the "er" sound of array, to represent more accurately the
actual speech sounds of English. I believe a phonetically based alphabet
should include the must ubiquitous sound of English the Schwa.
By the way, Craig, there is a FAQs page at www.shawalphabet.com under the
Question Page.
Please realize that it does refer to a revised version of the Shaw
Alphabet, where use of the Vowel letters has been minimized.
Otherwise the questions remain pertinent to the original version of the
Shaw alphabet.
Please let me know if you have any questions about the questions and the
answers.

Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
At 03:54 PM 6/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>I would have to agree with Philip. There have been so many different
>issues discussed. The ones he mentioned are the ones that would've sprung
>to my mind too, though. The main sticking points, in this group at least,
>have been those relating to american/british pronunciation models.
>
>Another major point that Shavian raises is that of the 'schwa' vowel
>encountered in everyday speech - should it be transcribed in the writing
>system, or should the unspoken 'fuller' pronunciation of those vowels be
>transcribed instead, as is the case in conventional orthography?
>
>Hugh
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:shavian@...>craigiest
>To: <mailto:shavian@...>shavian@...
>Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 2:50 PM
>Subject: [shavian] FAQ?
>
>Hello, I'm new to the group (stumbled into it doing research on
>spelling reform for a post-grad history-of-the-language seminar)
>and am wondering what is available in the way of FAQs. I don't
>need the basics, but I would like to know what issues have been
>discussed ad nauseum on this list, in summary.
>
>Craig Butz
>Athens, Ohio
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

This is my first visit to the group today, after having discovered
the Shavian alphabet via omniglot.com.

As a language teacher and student, I am interested in different
writing systemns and I have often thought English could use a new
alphabet, especially since I started studying Korean (and tried
teaching our alphabet to Korean children).

It must be said that Korean (Hangul) is a near-perfect writing system
invented for a specific language and should serve as an example to
Shavian enthusiasts everywhere. Too bad literacy levels are so high
in English speaking countries, otherwise we'd have a chance of
introducing Shavian as the standard writing system.



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----------
finewineau?

It is good that literacy standards are high in most of the English speaking
countries. But based on recent statistics better than 50% of the entire
world's population are all but illiterate in their own language and writing
system. India's poor showing and the difficulty in achieving fluency in the
Chinese Pictographic system,
are the crux of the problem to achieve World Literacy. I suspect their
understanding of the idiosyncrasies of English spelling, is also less than
adequate. English is the officical second language in the majority of
countries in the world.
----------
The difficulties of a foreign english student, who comes from a country
that does not already make use of the Roman Alphabet, should not be minimized.
----------
There is a need for simple, distinctive, and easy to use English alphabet.
Regards, Paul Vandenbrink

----------
P.S. We are looking at a suggestion to simplify the Shaw alphabet for use
with American English. Their are 2 major pronunciations of English today,
which further complicate the issue of using the Shaw alphabet. At 01:36 AM
7/3/02 +0000, you wrote:
>This is my first visit to the group today, after having discovered
>the Shavian alphabet via omniglot.com.
>
>As a language teacher and student, I am interested in different
>writing systemns and I have often thought English could use a new
>alphabet, especially since I started studying Korean (and tried
>teaching our alphabet to Korean children).
>
>It must be said that Korean (Hangul) is a near-perfect writing system
>invented for a specific language and should serve as an example to
>Shavian enthusiasts everywhere. Too bad literacy levels are so high
>in English speaking countries, otherwise we'd have a chance of
>introducing Shavian as the standard writing system.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Japanese and Hebrew are two other languages that have proper alphabets.
The problem with english is that we used the old roman alphabet, which
did not meet the variations that english, french and spanish use
(Meanwhile latin and italian retain roman as a fittig alphabet). As an
aunt, I will teach my niece shavian. When I become a mother, I will
teach my children shavian. All I need now is a better program for
typing it. I have already introduced my sister to it.

Love and luck,
Star
--- finewineau <finewineau@...> wrote:
> This is my first visit to the group today, after having discovered
> the Shavian alphabet via omniglot.com.
>
> As a language teacher and student, I am interested in different
> writing systemns and I have often thought English could use a new
> alphabet, especially since I started studying Korean (and tried
> teaching our alphabet to Korean children).
>
> It must be said that Korean (Hangul) is a near-perfect writing system
>
> invented for a specific language and should serve as an example to
> Shavian enthusiasts everywhere. Too bad literacy levels are so high
> in English speaking countries, otherwise we'd have a chance of
> introducing Shavian as the standard writing system.
>
>


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

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> P.S. We are looking at a suggestion to simplify the Shaw alphabet for
> use
> with American English. Their are 2 major pronunciations of English
> today,
> which further complicate the issue of using the Shaw alphabet.

I believe that a simplified version of the original shaw should be used
as opposed to quikscript. I have a few problems in that qs has combined
or otherwise eliminated sounds that I use separately, and creates new
symbols. Perhaps we *should* take a new look at shaw, but IMHO, I do
not think that QS is the right answer for american english, or perhaps
even British (the queen's english?)

Trying to be proper...for an american
Star


=====
"One ship goes east, another west,
By the self same gale that blows.
'Tis not the gale, but set of sail
That determines which way it goes."

--Unknown

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-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
Aan: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Datum: woensdag 3 juli 2002 18:00
Onderwerp: Re: [shavian] My first time


>Japanese and Hebrew are two other languages that have proper alphabets.
>The problem with english is that we used the old roman alphabet, which
>did not meet the variations that english, french and spanish use
>(Meanwhile latin and italian retain roman as a fittig alphabet). As an
>aunt, I will teach my niece shavian. When I become a mother, I will
>teach my children shavian. All I need now is a better program for
>typing it.

go to http://quikscript.teraiten.cjb.net and take a look at the scripts I
made for keyman. The link to the keyman website will further explain things.

I have made scripts, which, in combination with a program called 'Keyman'
allow easy Quickscript typing on a Windows system (version 3.1 and up).

It will not be hard reconfiguring these to Shavian. Perhaps someone here is
interested.

Ewout

> I have already introduced my sister to it.
>
>Love and luck,
>Star





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Hi Star Raven
There seems to be a number of ways to type up Shaw documents. Are you
using one of them.
1. Load a Shaw font and Install the Ghoti Writer from Lionel Ghoti
2. Load one of the Shaw fonts (i.e. Ghoti) and then use it from within any
of the word processor programs (i.e. notepad, Word)
3. Embed clips of the Shaw letters within a word program.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I think QuickScript has many of the benefits of the Shaw Alphabet, but
it has already been optimized to be written cursively, and the additional
alternate letters mitigate against its use as a simple printed alphabet.
P.P.S. In fact I think we need to Simplify or create a subset of the Shaw
Alphabet for popular use.
My last Revision of the Shaw Alphabet like Quickscript also added letters
for a couple of non English sounds. We need to come out with a simpler and
clearly delineated subset of the Shaw Alphabet just for American English
words with an accompanying teaching guide. Perhaps we could poll the
members of the group for suggestions and then vote on them. Anyone else
interested in pursuing this? It should be a community Initiative.
_____________________________________________________

At 09:28 PM 7/3/02 +0200, you wrote:
>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>Van: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
>Aan: shavian@... <shavian@...>
>Datum: woensdag 3 juli 2002 18:00
>Onderwerp: Re: [shavian] My first time
>
>
> >Japanese and Hebrew are two other languages that have proper alphabets.
> >The problem with english is that we used the old roman alphabet, which
> >did not meet the variations that english, french and spanish use
> >(Meanwhile latin and italian retain roman as a fittig alphabet). As an
> >aunt, I will teach my niece shavian. When I become a mother, I will
> >teach my children shavian. All I need now is a better program for
> >typing it.
>
>go to http://quikscript.teraiten.cjb.net and take a look at the scripts I
>made for keyman. The link to the keyman website will further explain things.
>
>I have made scripts, which, in combination with a program called 'Keyman'
>allow easy Quickscript typing on a Windows system (version 3.1 and up).
>
>It will not be hard reconfiguring these to Shavian. Perhaps someone here is
>interested.
>
>Ewout
>
> > I have already introduced my sister to it.
> >
> >Love and luck,
> >Star
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .