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pYl vAndanbrink rOt:

P.S. Does anyone else differentiate the pronunciation of
"tier" and "tear".
To me,
it sounds like tier is tot+eat+array and
it sounds like tear is tot+ear

nO distiNkSan hC, bOT R "tC".


It is such a faint distinction, I don't know if it is just wishful thinking.
Similar to "barrier" and "bare rear"?

"bX-I-D" - "bX-rC"?

-- brFan vibD (brion@... <mailto:brion@...> )

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> Internal consistency should be an ideal, but I believe practical
> considerations should take precedence.
> Consider the practicality of the Shaw Alphabet.
> It appears that they didn't come up with a esthetic solution for the
> Hung Ha-Ha pair of letters. They are not the voiced/voiceless form of the
> same sound and yet they are paired together.
> There are other more esthetic and practical solutions.
> A solution.
> Replace the letter for Hung with a large tilde ~ .
> It would then have a similar form to the other nasals. (mime,none)
> Any other practical ideas?

What is wrong with pairing h and ng up even if they don't relate to one
another? The alphabet can't be perfect, but it is much closer to perfection
than the Roman alphabet is. Making the symbols similar like this doesn't
cause any problems once you start seriously learning the alphabet. I never
had any problems myself.

> P.S. Does anyone else differentiate the pronunciation of
> "tier" and "tear".
> To me,
> it sounds like tier is tot+eat+array and
> it sounds like tear is tot+ear.
> It is such a faint distinction, I don't know if it is just wishful
thinking.
> Similar to "barrier" and "bare rear"?

Well in my own speech there is no difference...

Hugh B

> Internal consistency should be an ideal, but I believe practical
> considerations should take precedence.
> Consider the practicality of the Shaw Alphabet.
> It appears that they didn't come up with a esthetic solution for the
> Hung Ha-Ha pair of letters. They are not the voiced/voiceless form of the
> same sound and yet they are paired together.
> There are other more esthetic and practical solutions.
> A solution.
> Replace the letter for Hung with a large tilde ~ .
> It would then have a similar form to the other nasals. (mime,none)
> Any other practical ideas?

What is wrong with pairing h and ng up even if they don't relate to one
another? The alphabet can't be perfect, but it is much closer to perfection
than the Roman alphabet is. Making the symbols similar like this doesn't
cause any problems once you start seriously learning the alphabet. I never
had any problems myself.

> P.S. Does anyone else differentiate the pronunciation of
> "tier" and "tear".
> To me,
> it sounds like tier is tot+eat+array and
> it sounds like tear is tot+ear.
> It is such a faint distinction, I don't know if it is just wishful
thinking.
> Similar to "barrier" and "bare rear"?

Well in my own speech there is no difference...

Hugh B



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Please don't swap letters in this manner. I won't consider your font at all if any letters are swapped as you describe. If you value the opinions of others in the group, you won't try to change the alphabet by fiat.

Try reading back through the history of this group, right back to the start. You will note a discussion starting in about March-April (1999) sparked by one Ross DeMeyere, creator of the Androcles and Ghoti fonts. One day he decided, on advice of someone who had written to him, to change his fonts so that 'haha' and 'hung' were swapped round. It made perfect sense to him.

But you will see if you read all the replies he received, the decision was found to be flawed. I suggest you read back from there to see how this came about. Why should we see history repeating itself!

Hugh

P.S. I do not dismiss the fact that 'air' and 'err' were accidentally swapped in the alphabet's creation. This is obviously the case. However the fact that the characters are swapped does not present a problem, either in use or in the learning process. It would be counter-productive at this stage to attempt to change anything at such a fundamental level as this.

----- Original Message -----
From: rubik67 <mailto:rubik67@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha

--- In shavian@y <mailto:shavian@y> ..., "craigiest" <shavian@w <mailto:shavian@w> ...> wrote:
> This is one major reason spelling reform will never
happen: too much
> tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is a
book out
> there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.

Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took me
until April 18th of this year to even become aware of its
existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has been
out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to pieces
and been tossed from every library which had a copy of it,
isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.

> You can't just go swapping letters.

Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he not?

> Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be
raised to be
> tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't
render
> everything already written extremely difficult to read if
it caught
> on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books had g
and h
> swapped?

Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may not
have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your own
(?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
happinefs".

> How about not adding to the confusion.

On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the confusion,
but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message, it
only makes sense for H to be tall like the other voiceless
characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung) implies.
L8r.



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Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> What is wrong with pairing h and ng up even if they don't
> relate to one another?

They do relate to one another -- kind of. They're in complementary
distribution (that is, they can't occur in the same phonetic environment):
"h" can only occur syllable-initially, and "ng" only syllable-medially and
syllable-finally.

Often, sounds that are in complementary distribution are allophones of the
same phoneme (for example, the aspirated p in "pit" and the unaspirated p in
"spit", at least for some speakers), but here it would probably be safe to
say that /h/ and /N/ do not represent the same phoneme :)

(Strictly speaking, I suppose one could consider "ado" and "up" to be the
same phoneme, since they are in complementary distribution: "ado" only in
unstressed syllables, and "up" only in stressed syllables. But since stress
is not marked in Shavian -- as it is, for example, in IPA or similar
transcriptions --, having two letters for this is a good way to distinguish
stressed from unstressed syllables. The difference, for example, between
"mention" /menSan/ and "men shun" /menSun/.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Hi Rubik
I tend to agree with Hugh in this matter. Rather than modify a working
alphabet, it would be better to incorporate all the various improvements
into a NEW alphabet called Shaw2000 or some other name.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. If people were in fact assembling improvements,
I would recommend that the Err (Urge) letter be changed to resemble
the Array letter, rather than be paired with Air.
The Err and Array letters represent very similar sounds.

_______________attached __________________________________

>From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@...>
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: <shavian@...>
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:54:14 +0100
>
>Please don't swap letters in this manner. I won't consider your font at all
>if any letters are swapped as you describe. If you value the opinions of
>others in the group, you won't try to change the alphabet by fiat.
>
>Try reading back through the history of this group, right back to the
>start. You will note a discussion starting in about March-April (1999)
>sparked by one Ross DeMeyere, creator of the Androcles and Ghoti fonts. One
>day he decided, on advice of someone who had written to him, to change his
>fonts so that 'haha' and 'hung' were swapped round. It made perfect sense
>to him.
>
>But you will see if you read all the replies he received, the decision was
>found to be flawed. I suggest you read back from there to see how this came
>about. Why should we see history repeating itself!
>
>Hugh
>
>P.S. I do not dismiss the fact that 'air' and 'err' were accidentally
>swapped in the alphabet's creation. This is obviously the case. However the
>fact that the characters are swapped does not present a problem, either in
>use or in the learning process. It would be counter-productive at this
>stage to attempt to change anything at such a fundamental level as this.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rubik67
> To: shavian@...
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
>
>
> --- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...> wrote:
> > This is one major reason spelling reform will never
> happen: too much
> > tinkering that nullifies other people's work. There is a
> book out
> > there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.
>
> Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took me
> until April 18th of this year to even become aware of its
> existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which has been
> out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to pieces
> and been tossed from every library which had a copy of it,
> isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.
>
> > You can't just go swapping letters.
>
> Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he not?
>
> > Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> > HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA be
> raised to be
> > tall. I don't see the need, but at least that wouldn't
> render
> > everything already written extremely difficult to read if
> it caught
> > on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old books had g
> and h
> > swapped?
>
> Interesting you should mention that. While g and h may not
> have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in your own
> (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the purfuit of
> happinefs".
>
> > How about not adding to the confusion.
>
> On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the confusion,
> but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous message, it
> only makes sense for H to be tall like the other voiceless
> characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung) implies.
> L8r.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>




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I must also agree here. Though I cannot truly recommend
changing too much of the alphabet as there are many merits
to shavian in its original form.

--Star

--- Paul Vandenbrink <pvandenbrink11@...> wrote:
> Hi Rubik
> I tend to agree with Hugh in this matter. Rather than
> modify a working
> alphabet, it would be better to incorporate all the
> various improvements
> into a NEW alphabet called Shaw2000 or some other name.
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. If people were in fact assembling improvements,
> I would recommend that the Err (Urge) letter be changed
> to resemble
> the Array letter, rather than be paired with Air.
> The Err and Array letters represent very similar sounds.
>
> _______________attached
> __________________________________
>
> >From: "Hugh Birkenhead" <h.birkenhead@...>
> >Reply-To: shavian@...
> >To: <shavian@...>
> >Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
> >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:54:14 +0100
> >
> >Please don't swap letters in this manner. I won't
> consider your font at all
> >if any letters are swapped as you describe. If you value
> the opinions of
> >others in the group, you won't try to change the
> alphabet by fiat.
> >
> >Try reading back through the history of this group,
> right back to the
> >start. You will note a discussion starting in about
> March-April (1999)
> >sparked by one Ross DeMeyere, creator of the Androcles
> and Ghoti fonts. One
> >day he decided, on advice of someone who had written to
> him, to change his
> >fonts so that 'haha' and 'hung' were swapped round. It
> made perfect sense
> >to him.
> >
> >But you will see if you read all the replies he
> received, the decision was
> >found to be flawed. I suggest you read back from there
> to see how this came
> >about. Why should we see history repeating itself!
> >
> >Hugh
> >
> >P.S. I do not dismiss the fact that 'air' and 'err' were
> accidentally
> >swapped in the alphabet's creation. This is obviously
> the case. However the
> >fact that the characters are swapped does not present a
> problem, either in
> >use or in the learning process. It would be
> counter-productive at this
> >stage to attempt to change anything at such a
> fundamental level as this.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: rubik67
> > To: shavian@...
> > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:19 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha
> >
> >
> > --- In shavian@y..., "craigiest" <shavian@w...>
> wrote:
> > > This is one major reason spelling reform will never
> > happen: too much
> > > tinkering that nullifies other people's work.
> There is a
> > book out
> > > there in thousands of libraries printed in shavian.
> >
> > Yes... and it's so common and well known that it took
> me
> > until April 18th of this year to even become aware of
> its
> > existence. I'm sorry, but one paperback book which
> has been
> > out of print for decades, and has probably fallen to
> pieces
> > and been tossed from every library which had a copy
> of it,
> > isn't enough of a justification, IMHO.
> >
> > > You can't just go swapping letters.
> >
> > Kingsley Read did (air and err in QuikScript), did he
> not?
> >
> > > Someone suggested that instead of swapping HUNG and
> > > HAHA, that HUNG be pushed down to be deep, and HAHA
> be
> > raised to be
> > > tall. I don't see the need, but at least that
> wouldn't
> > render
> > > everything already written extremely difficult to
> read if
> > it caught
> > > on. Can you just imagine, people, if some old
> books had g
> > and h
> > > swapped?
> >
> > Interesting you should mention that. While g and h
> may not
> > have been swapped, I seem to remember a document in
> your own
> > (?) history mentioning "life, liberty, and the
> purfuit of
> > happinefs".
> >
> > > How about not adding to the confusion.
> >
> > On the contrary, I don't see it as adding to the
> confusion,
> > but clearing it up. Like I said in my previous
> message, it
> > only makes sense for H to be tall like the other
> voiceless
> > characters, and ng to hang down as its name (hung)
> implies.
> > L8r.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger:
> http://messenger.msn.com
>
>


=====
"You know what they say, 'Human see, Human do.' "
--Julius, Planet of the Apes

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--- In shavian@y..., "Paul Vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink11@h...> wrote:
> P.S. Does anyone else differentiate the pronunciation of
> "tier" and "tear".
> To me,
> it sounds like tier is tot+eat+array and
> it sounds like tear is tot+ear.
> It is such a faint distinction, I don't know if it is just wishful
thinking.
> Similar to "barrier" and "bare rear"?

Indeed. I also hear the distinction between the two, subtle as it may
be. L8r.




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--- In shavian@y..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> I must also agree here. Though I cannot truly recommend
> changing too much of the alphabet as there are many merits
> to shavian in its original form.

It's a good thing I didn't make too many changes, then. :-) Anyhoo,
for those of you who insist on the whole "Thou musteth leave
Androcles's Shavianeth intacteth with no changeseth of any kindeth",
you'll be happy to know that h and ng are right beside each other on
the keyboard with my font, as are air and err, so switching them on
the fly won't be all that big a deal, especially compared with the
nightmare layout of the more traditional fonts. L8r.



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"Thou musteth leave
Androcles's Shavianeth intacteth with no changeseth of any kindeth"

Classic! :-P

But that's not what it's about. We are not in the position to change an alphabet that is not OURS to change. This is simply about the fact that you can't sell an alphabet as Shavian if it ISN'T SHAVIAN!

What is the great problem with the way 'h' and 'ng' are? They don't cause any problems in usage or in anything else apart from simple perfectionism. It's a nitpicking, niggling point that no one should have to make a massive issue about. By the way, since you might have missed what was said in a similar conversation 3 years ago, Read didn't see it necessary to 'flip' the the letters back to their 'proper' positions when he drew up Quikscript; although 'h' has a different symbol, 'ng' is still the same tall letter. If this were a genuine error, why was it not corrected, as Read DID correct the 'air'/'err' reversal?

It's far too easy for us to 'tinker' with the alphabet. What's NOT going to be as easy is promoting the alphabet to a wider audience, but this is the priority here. Right now we have a WORKING alphabet, and everyone seems to take for granted the fact that it wipes the floor with the Roman alphabet!! PLEASE let us not forget this!

So let's get on with the job that it's our duty to do and USE the alphabet, thereby promoting its use. It's no wonder people don't take the alphabet seriously if all we're going to do is fiddle about.

Hugh

----- Original Message -----
From: rubik67 <mailto:rubik67@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:42 AM
Subject: [shavian] Re: hung vs ha-ha

--- In shavian@y <mailto:shavian@y> ..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y <mailto:celestraof12worlds@y> ...> wrote:
> I must also agree here. Though I cannot truly recommend
> changing too much of the alphabet as there are many merits
> to shavian in its original form.

It's a good thing I didn't make too many changes, then. :-) Anyhoo,
for those of you who insist on the whole "Thou musteth leave
Androcles's Shavianeth intacteth with no changeseth of any kindeth",
you'll be happy to know that h and ng are right beside each other on
the keyboard with my font, as are air and err, so switching them on
the fly won't be all that big a deal, especially compared with the
nightmare layout of the more traditional fonts. L8r.



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