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Hal notes that he pronounces the word "err" to rime with "fair", while the
Shaw Alphabet reading and writing key clearly means for it to be pronounced
to rime with "fur".

I think this is a variation in pronunciation of a word, rather than a dialect
difference.

My late mother, always a stickler for dictionary pronunciation, insisted that
it must rime with "fur", but I've more often heard the other pronunciation.

When I thought it was possible to rename the Shavian letters, I suggested
renaming the letter "earn" which is unambiguous.

To err is human, but it feels divine, as the poet said.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee
(mother was from Oregon)

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Dear Hal,
I had to figure out that "err" business, too. I'm a Midwesterner with a
father (I don't use his name) from Missouri (say: Muh-ZUR-uh) and a
mother from Carpathian Poland. I also speak strict standard Midwestern
English, because I learned English in school first, after learning
Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and Yiddish at home. My English lacks the
typical heavy nasality of Chicago, because I didn't learn it first from
fellow Chicagoans, but at school.
As a linguist (Ph.D. in linguistics and anthropology), I'm not aware of
any American English dialect in which "err" rhymes with "fur." "Err" and
"air" have the same sound in my dialect. And I still avoid "Ian" like
the plague, because I don't know why I would use it. If it's two vowels,
ee + uh, I prefer to spell them separately because they form 2
syllables.
It might amuse you to know that there's hard linguistic evidence that
some features of "Southern American English" are spreading into
Midwestern English further and further northwards. I did some studies
with a professor and found some of these features as far north as
Springfield, Illinois. In particular, the use of "you all" for the
plural of "you" is spreading quickly. I picked it up in Texas and no one
in Seattle, where I live now, or Chicago remarks on it. We think this is
because most varieties of English under-differentiate in pronouns--that
is, "you" can refer to any number of people, which is potentially
confusing, especially in writing. Also "you" is often used in a general
sense, where some speakers use "one," e.g. "You ought to go to college
to get a good job." My use of "y'all" does seem to make my English
easier to understand. I don't know if the South will rise again, but
it's definitely going North....
Thanks for your comments. Dan


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1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456
7890123456

> Now, having said all that, I have an embarrassing confession. The
> Shavian letter "err" was originally problematic for me because the
> pronunciation that I am familiar with is apparently not the British
> pronunciation at all.
> In my dialect, I think most if not all, pronounce "err" as the first
> syllable of "error." In my usual speech, the syllable "-err-" is
> pronounced the same in all these words: err, Herr, error, terror,
> berry, ferry, Derry, and Terry.
>
> Learning that Brits evidently say "urr" like a dog growling made me
> wonder where else this occurred. Did they say "furry" for "ferry"?
> More importantly, did they make "urrors"? Are there any analogues
> for this at all?

My pronunciation varies between British and American (British father, but
much American influence from International School), but I pronounce "air" in
error, terror, berry, ferry. I pronounce "urr" in err, er (as in "umm, er,
well") her, and earn. I "urr" on the side of caution, to try to avoid
"airors". If you mean "Herr" as in the German word, I pronounce it like in
German (roughly as in non-rhotic British), even when in the middle of
speaking rhotic Americanoid English.

Cheers,
Philip


Philip Newton
--------------------------------------------------------------
Datenrevision GmbH
a gedas company
Cuxhavener Straße 36, D-21149 Hamburg
Telefon/phone +49-(0)40-797 007-37
Telefax/telefax +49-(0)40-797 007-10
mailto:Philip.Newton@...
http://www.datenrevision.de
--------------------------------------------------------------

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> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
> 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012
> 34567890123456
> 7890123456

Sorry about that. It was meant to be temporary only.

Cheers,
Philip

Philip Newton
--------------------------------------------------------------
Datenrevision GmbH
a gedas company
Cuxhavener Straße 36, D-21149 Hamburg
Telefon/phone +49-(0)40-797 007-37
Telefax/telefax +49-(0)40-797 007-10
mailto:Philip.Newton@...
http://www.datenrevision.de
--------------------------------------------------------------

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----- Original Message -----
From: <hal9000@...>
To: <shavian@eGroups.com>
Sent: 12 October 1999 9:44 pm
Subject: [shavian] Concerning "err"


8>< SNIP ><8

> Learning that Brits evidently say "urr" like a dog growling made me
> wonder
> where else this occurred. Did they say "furry" for "ferry"? More
> importantly,
> did they make "urrors"? Are there any analogues for this at all?

Ermine, erne, erstwhile, ergative, ergo, ergot, ergonomics, Ernest: how do you say those, y'all? Granted, all my examples have a single R, and in each case it's the first element of a consonant cluster, so maybe these aren't comparable.

I wasn't aware of this "err"/"air" similarity in US accents, and I can see how it would be confusing. I'm thinking of changing the "err" caption to Bob's "earn", or maybe "urn" or "earth"*, in all my tables, on my web site, and in my evangelical posters and postcards, which I don't seem to have got around to distributing to the world's major media centres yet.

* I like "earth", because that's the word I use to remember which glyph represents the sound in "air", and which represents the murmuring sound in question. Both symbols are made up of two elements, the second being the R-glyph: in "air", the two elements are joined at the top, in the air; and in "earth" they are joined at the bottom, in the earth.

Herr Ghoti




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I've just noticed that Barbara Smoker, who had a lot to do with the birth of the Shavian alphabet, is to be on the television programme _Living with the Enemy_, tonight, Wednesday 13 October, at 9.00 pm on BBC 2. I tried to look her up on the Internet a few months ago, but could find hardly anything, and I feared the old stick might be dead. She's a humanist who has railed against religion often at Speakers' Corner, and in this programme she's forced to live with an evangelist for a few days. Sorry I didn't notice sooner.

LG


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Just for those of you who are interested, there is an example of my own
Shavian handwriting now available at:

http://www.funkymusic.co.uk/shavian/images/shawtest.jpg

Comments welcome.

Hugh Birkenhead
www.funkymusic.co.uk


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Thanks to all who have replied.

One clarification: Attempting to set down pronunciations in writing is
problematic in itself, since we do it by referring to "common" words
which we think we all pronounce similarly.

At least two of you now think that I pronounce "err" as "air" -- but
actually I don't. "Err" and "air" are as distinct for me as "ferry"
and "fairy" (or "berry" and "Barry").

My "err" could be considered (perhaps) as a short e as in "egg" combined
with the British "err." I don't consider it a diphthong ordinarily,
except
when I am thinking a little more precisely.

See Tolkien's discussion of "bell" and "fill," and how the Elves might
render
them as "beol" and "fiol" -- "beh-ul" and "fih-ul."

My "air" is more like a diphthong of short "a" (cat) plus "urr."

her/Hur hurr
Herr heh-urr
hair haeh-urr

As for ermine, ersatz, ergonomics, etc. -- I do pronounce those with an
"urr" as in "earth." Two exceptions: If I am actually speaking German,
of
which I know a little, I'll say "ersatz" the other way. And if I'm
really
trying to pronounce Latin (as in "cogito, ergo sum") rather than just
sitting
in a math class, I'll say "ergo" the other way.

It might be very interesting to take a sample text like the one someone
has
on his web site (is it Hugh? or Bob? sorry) and post a WAV file to go
along
with the Shavian transliteration. I think that's a good idea, but
unfortunately
I can think up ideas faster than I can implement them. (I haven't even
posted
my own transliteration yet.)

As for notating "err" as "earth": I think it's probably unwise to try
to change
the original names; but it might be more acceptable to add an
alternative name
in brackets or some such: [earth]. That would let Americans in on the
secret,
since most of us apparently pronounce "err" as I do, more or less. And
it's
certainly acceptable to amplify this issue with explanatory text.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Cheers,
Hal





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Hugh Birkenhead has a great idea here - more of us should do this. I'd
recommend using a heavier pen than he did. Note that the text he uses is
Shaw's test text.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee USA

In a message dated 10/13/99 4:47:53 PM, he wrote:

<<Just for those of you who are interested, there is an example of my own

Shavian handwriting now available at:


http://www.funkymusic.co.uk/shavian/images/shawtest.jpg
>>

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This has been a fascinating discussion. I've lived my entire life in the
American Midwest, and I'd never heard of anyone pronouncing "err" as
anything other than "air." And of course, I have always pronounced
"ferry" and "fairy" alike as well as "Barry" and "berry."

I remember reading many years ago that in New England, "Mary,"
"marry," and "merry" are each pronounced slightly differently, but that
you could never convince a Midwesterner of that.

All the best,
Phillip Driscoll

-----Original Message-----
From: hal9000@... <hal9000@...>
To: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 5:17 PM
Subject: [shavian] Err, air, etc.


>Thanks to all who have replied.
>
>One clarification: Attempting to set down pronunciations in writing is
>problematic in itself, since we do it by referring to "common" words
>which we think we all pronounce similarly.
>
>At least two of you now think that I pronounce "err" as "air" -- but
>actually I don't. "Err" and "air" are as distinct for me as "ferry"
>and "fairy" (or "berry" and "Barry").
>
>My "err" could be considered (perhaps) as a short e as in "egg" combined
>with the British "err." I don't consider it a diphthong ordinarily,
>except
>when I am thinking a little more precisely.
>
>See Tolkien's discussion of "bell" and "fill," and how the Elves might
>render
>them as "beol" and "fiol" -- "beh-ul" and "fih-ul."
>
>My "air" is more like a diphthong of short "a" (cat) plus "urr."
>
> her/Hur hurr
> Herr heh-urr
> hair haeh-urr
>
>As for ermine, ersatz, ergonomics, etc. -- I do pronounce those with an
>"urr" as in "earth." Two exceptions: If I am actually speaking German,
>of
>which I know a little, I'll say "ersatz" the other way. And if I'm
>really
>trying to pronounce Latin (as in "cogito, ergo sum") rather than just
>sitting
>in a math class, I'll say "ergo" the other way.
>
>It might be very interesting to take a sample text like the one someone
>has
>on his web site (is it Hugh? or Bob? sorry) and post a WAV file to go
>along
>with the Shavian transliteration. I think that's a good idea, but
>unfortunately
>I can think up ideas faster than I can implement them. (I haven't even
>posted
>my own transliteration yet.)
>
>As for notating "err" as "earth": I think it's probably unwise to try
>to change
>the original names; but it might be more acceptable to add an
>alternative name
>in brackets or some such: [earth]. That would let Americans in on the
>secret,
>since most of us apparently pronounce "err" as I do, more or less. And
>it's
>certainly acceptable to amplify this issue with explanatory text.
>
>Just my $0.02 worth.
>
>Cheers,
>Hal
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/shavian
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>
>
>
>
>


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