Hi Star
First the easy question.
I usually pronounce ocean, to rhyme with lotion, potion and motion.
And while I stress "potion" on the second syllable. I would say the stress
difference between my first and second syllable of o-cean is negligable.
But if I am speaking quickly, I say oash-un (Shaw OS-an). Either is quite
acceptable in my accent group.
Sorry you misconstrued my meaning. Sometimes I don't write as clearly and
fully as needed to get my exact meaning across. Sometimes I just don't have
time to spell it out. (Pun intended)
When I said toddler, I was talking about myself. Due to some unusual family
circumstances, I learned to read English well before I had a complete grasp
of the sounds of English vocabulary, I was reading.
In a certain sense, I learned to read before I could speak clearly.
As a result, I learned to pronounce a number of words improperly, because I
assume the English spelling could be relied upon. (Normative)
If I had seen the word "Hiccough" back when I was a toddler, I would not
have matched it up to the sound "hick-up". Too big a jump for a toddler. I
would have assumed it was a new word. Hi-kawf, meaning some kind of a cough.
Please do not assume, in the future, that your experience is normative. and
other people do not have a different slant on things than you.
I had to learn that when I was barely more than a toddler.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. By the way,t hat is why I have strong interest in correcting English
Spelling Quagmire.
______________attached_________________________
At 11:02 AM 9/12/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Paul,
>
>Perhaps it's a failure in the language on the whole that I might have
>misconstrued the meaning of: "I've never heard any one, even a toddler,
>say hic-coff." If you had meant to ask about my accent group, perhaps
>it would have been better to ask about my accent group.
>
>It is not that I jumped to a conclusion. I read the above to mean
>exactly what was written. "Even a toddler can say this my way." Is that
>such a wild leap to make? I don't understand how a toddler's
>pronunciation of any word has any thing to do with accent groups. My 2
>year old niece says "wa-wa" instead of water, yet she is raised with a
>mother who speaks with what my parents call "journalistic clarity," in
>other words, with the clear inflection of national news anchors. How
>does this developmental mis-pronunciation affect how she will say the
>word when she is grown? Do toddlers in Canada have some different
>pronunciation for water before they learn to say it correctly?
>
>I find myself in a position that I feel that I must defend those within
>my familial accent group (those from whom I learned to speak) in that
>they happen to pronounce one word, when written with a certain
>spelling, different from how someone else or even many others may
>pronounce it. This is a local shift, and nothing to be concerned about,
>though it is worth defending. How else would our language evolve?. Who
>knows, perhaps five generations ago, someone in my family simply read
>it incorrectly, and as such passed it on to his family, thus affecting
>my pronunciation of the word today as befitting my accent group.
>
>On the same note, how do you emphasise the word ocean? My familial,
>local, regional, and national accent groups place the accent on the
>first sylable. I am not sure if this is still the case in some places,
>but there was a time when the emphasis was placed on the final
>syllable: a pronunciation shift, possibly even started when some one
>saw it written and mis-pronounced it.
>
>--Star
>
>--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> > Hi Star
> >
> > Don't jump to conclusions. I never compared you to a toddler.
> > In my accent group, there is no such pronounciation.
> > I just asked you from what accent grouping that you heard Hiccough
> > pronounced as Hick-cawf or Hick-cof.
> > Please my apologies if my words could be so misconstrued.
> > I had no such intention.
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Maybe it's my local dialect. Thank you for comparing me to a
> > toddler.
> > >
> > > --Star
> > >
> > > --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > > > Hi Star
> > > > I have never heard anyone even a toddler say hic-cof. And in
> > Canada,
> > > > Hiccough is a perfectly acceptable spelling of <<hick-up>>. What
> > > > accent group would say hick cof?
> > > > Regards, Paul V.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In shavian@..., Star Raven
> > <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Fist off in America, we spell it <hiccup> aand pronounce the
> > other
> > > > > spelling as "hic-cof" second, that means that the ei should be
> > > > long,
> > > > > and not making the long a sound.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice try, but no dice
> > > > > --Star
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Scott Stephens <swstephe@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > deceit? receipt? (hey! this is fun!)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > > And I can't fathom a silent p after an ei
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Star
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > I can understand most of the letters and which
> > > > > > > words they are taken
> > > > > > > > from to
> > > > > > > > produce the word 'potato' ,but I can't see how
> > > > > > > 'Gh' could EVER be
> > > > > > > > taken to
> > > > > > > > be a 'p'...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ...but it probably wouldn't surprise me to learn
> > > > > > > of a word where it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > pronounced as such...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hugh B
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: <RSRICHMOND@a...>
> > > > > > > > To: <shavian@...>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 4:03 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [shavian] Ghoubteiptough
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Someone who identifies herself only as Meghan
> > > > > > > wrote me:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >>I was challenged to figure out what the word
> > > > > > > "Ghoubteiptough"
> > > > > > > > means and
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > hint was George Bernard Shaw.<<
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I explained that somebody spelled "potato" in
> > > > > > > "ghoti" style, and
> > > > > > > > she
> > > > > > > > thought
> > > > > > > > > I was making fun of her.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Does anybody know the source of this jest? I
> > > > > > > remember reading about
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > maybe
> > > > > > > > > 50 years ago, but can't recall where.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bob Richmond
> > > > > > > > > Knoxville TN
> > > > > > > > > RSRICHMOND on AOL
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > =====
> > > > > > > Hand Jive (do each movement twice): Pat Legs, Clap
> > > > > > > hands, Wave right over left, Wave left over right,
> > > > > > > Right fist over left, Left Fist over right,
> > > > > > > Hitchhiker right, Hitchhiker left.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site
> > > > > > > design software
> > > > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =====
> > > > > Hand Jive (do each movement twice): Pat Legs, Clap hands, Wave
> > > > right over left, Wave left over right, Right fist over left, Left
> >
> > > > Fist over right, Hitchhiker right, Hitchhiker left.
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > > > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Hand Jive (do each movement twice): Pat Legs, Clap hands, Wave
> > right over left, Wave left over right, Right fist over left, Left
> > Fist over right, Hitchhiker right, Hitchhiker left.
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
> > > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
>=====
>Pisces: Try to avoid any virgos or leos with the ebola virus. You are the
>true lord of the dance no matter what those idiots at work say!
>
>--Wierd Al
>
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