Shavian eGroup Archive Browser
From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2003-10-04 14:48:50 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] My new discussion group.
Toggle Shavian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
> Cool, Good for you, and welcome to the group.
Erm, he's been here at least 4 months I think :-P
Hugh B
From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-10-04 17:10:37 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] My new discussion group.
Toggle Shavian
oh whoops... I think I'm a little behind on the times... it was, um, a
belated welcome?
--Star
--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
>
> > Cool, Good for you, and welcome to the group.
>
> Erm, he's been here at least 4 months I think :-P
>
> Hugh B
>
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-10-05 18:55:56 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: My new discussion group.
Toggle Shavian
Welcome Carl
It is nice to find someone agreeable. Any more questions?
Interesting the number of off-beat opinions amoung our group.
Star seems to be expressing some Zen beliefs. And I come from a pre-
christian sect, rather well thought of by the LDS.
I actually did learned some of the non-religous lessons of Zen
Buddism when I was in my 20's. The most important things can be found
in a puff of air.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> oh whoops... I think I'm a little behind on the times... it was,
um, a
> belated welcome?
>
> --Star
>
> --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> >
> > > Cool, Good for you, and welcome to the group.
> >
> > Erm, he's been here at least 4 months I think :-P
> >
> > Hugh B
> >
>
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
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> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
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From: carl easton
Date: 2003-10-06 21:50:51 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: My new discussion group.
Toggle Shavian
Well Thank you, Paul,
I take you must be a Jew then. So now that we know which faith each of us is, we can now continue our grand discussion of our favorite writing system -- Shavian.
For today I don't have much to discuss, except that Paul, I think it would be cool if you would present your revised shaw alphabet to omniglot.com.
Any thoughts--comments,
best regards,
Carl
paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
Welcome Carl
It is nice to find someone agreeable. Any more questions?
Interesting the number of off-beat opinions amoung our group.
Star seems to be expressing some Zen beliefs. And I come from a pre-
christian sect, rather well thought of by the LDS.
I actually did learned some of the non-religous lessons of Zen
Buddism when I was in my 20's. The most important things can be found
in a puff of air.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> oh whoops... I think I'm a little behind on the times... it was,
um, a
> belated welcome?
>
> --Star
>
> --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> >
> > > Cool, Good for you, and welcome to the group.
> >
> > Erm, he's been here at least 4 months I think :-P
> >
> > Hugh B
> >
>
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com <http://shopping.yahoo.com/>
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-10-07 16:36:25 #
Subject: [shavian] A new discussion group.
Toggle Shavian
Quite correct Carl
Glad to continue our discussions.
My problem is that when I first suggested a couple years back, that
there was a need for a revised Shaw Alphabet to deal logically with
various accent groups and other common variations in English
pronunciation, I met with a fair bit of resistance, from the rest of
the Shavian group.
I don't expect the Revised Shaw Alphabet to supplant the original
Shaw Alphabet, but as a working objective, I wanted the following 5
benefits.
1. Introduce letters for "el", "wh", "kh" and the Glottal Stop.
2. Simplify the vowels so that some extraneous distinctions preserved
only in T.O. and a few small regional dialect groups, would no longer
be a stumbling block to American English speakers.
3. Provide a way to represent the Schwa and Stand-alone consonants in
words such as spoken, blossum, girl, foxes, circus, item and gallop.
4. Get rid of the slashes for the Shaw letters "woe" and "yea"
5. Get rid of the Shaw letter "Ian" as it is better represented by
"Eat" + "Adoo"
Also I wanted to provide an optional system of Vowel Markers, to
allow a Shaw writer to indicate embedded or indistinct vowel sounds
with a more general vowel placeholder (variable).
This was to make the Shaw Alphabet as easy to write as it is to read.
And the system would be upward compatible with original Shavian
Alphabet.
I have accomplished most of this, but I haven't put forward this
final revision. The one on my site is an earlier less accomplished
version. I need to update my site first.
I don't want to make things to complicated.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Well Thank you, Paul,
>
> I take you must be a Jew then. So now that we know which faith each
of us is, we can now continue our grand discussion of our favorite
writing system -- Shavian.
> For today I don't have much to discuss, except that Paul, I think
it would be cool if you would present your revised shaw alphabet to
omniglot.com.
>
> Any thoughts--comments,
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
> paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Welcome Carl
>
> It is nice to find someone agreeable. Any more questions?
>
> Interesting the number of off-beat opinions amoung our group.
> Star seems to be expressing some Zen beliefs. And I come from a pre-
> christian sect, rather well thought of by the LDS.
>
> I actually did learned some of the non-religous lessons of Zen
> Buddism when I was in my 20's. The most important things can be
found
> in a puff of air.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > oh whoops... I think I'm a little behind on the times... it was,
> um, a
> > belated welcome?
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > >
> > > > Cool, Good for you, and welcome to the group.
> > >
> > > Erm, he's been here at least 4 months I think :-P
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
> Hakuin
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-10-07 19:16:59 #
Subject: [shavian] A new discussion group - continued
Toggle Shavian
Hi Carl
I checked to see what the requirements are to post my Revised Shaw
Alphabet to www.omniglot.com.
He needs the following information:
1. an illustration of the alphabet showing all the letters and the
sounds they represent
2. some background blurb: why you invented the alphabet, which
language(s) it can be used to write, how it works, etc.
a sample text - ideally article one of the Universal Declaration of
Human Rights
3. a font for your alphabet if you have one.
4. any other information you think relevant to use the alphabet and
the font.
Please save images in GIF format with a resolution of 72dpi, a
maximum width of 600px and a file size of ideally no more than 20K.
If you are unable to scan the images into a computer, you can send
them to me by post.
A friend of mine is working on a Window True type font for the
revised Shaw Alphabet. Should be ready this month.
So hopefully, I can send all the information to Simon in a month or
two.
Still even after Simon receives this information it may take him some
time to put it on Omniglot.com.
So please be patient. It is well worth doing.
Regards, Paul V.
The following scripts on Omniglot are recent creations and seem
interesting.
Betamaze, Delason, Karmeli, larenti tergush, Lúmo, Mesa, Nikhilipi,
Redjang, Serian, Shavian, Vine, 12480
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Quite correct Carl
> Glad to continue our discussions.
> My problem is that when I first suggested a couple years back, that
> there was a need for a revised Shaw Alphabet to deal logically with
> various accent groups and other common variations in English
> pronunciation, I met with a fair bit of resistance, from the rest
of
> the Shavian group.
> I don't expect the Revised Shaw Alphabet to supplant the original
> Shaw Alphabet, but as a working objective, I wanted the following 5
> benefits.
> 1. Introduce letters for "el", "wh", "kh" and the Glottal Stop.
> 2. Simplify the vowels so that some extraneous distinctions
preserved
> only in T.O. and a few small regional dialect groups, would no
longer
> be a stumbling block to American English speakers.
> 3. Provide a way to represent the Schwa and Stand-alone consonants
in
> words such as spoken, blossum, girl, foxes, circus, item and
gallop.
> 4. Get rid of the slashes for the Shaw letters "woe" and "yea"
> 5. Get rid of the Shaw letter "Ian" as it is better represented by
> "Eat" + "Adoo"
> Also I wanted to provide an optional system of Vowel Markers, to
> allow a Shaw writer to indicate embedded or indistinct vowel sounds
> with a more general vowel placeholder (variable).
>
> This was to make the Shaw Alphabet as easy to write as it is to
read.
> And the system would be upward compatible with original Shavian
> Alphabet.
>
> I have accomplished most of this, but I haven't put forward this
> final revision. The one on my site is an earlier less accomplished
> version. I need to update my site first.
> I don't want to make things to complicated.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> --- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
wrote:
> > Well Thank you, Paul,
> >
> > I take you must be a Jew then. So now that we know which faith
each
> of us is, we can now continue our grand discussion of our favorite
> writing system -- Shavian.
> > For today I don't have much to discuss, except that Paul, I think
> it would be cool if you would present your revised shaw alphabet to
> omniglot.com.
> >
> > Any thoughts--comments,
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> > Welcome Carl
> >
> > It is nice to find someone agreeable. Any more questions?
> >
> > Interesting the number of off-beat opinions amoung our group.
> > Star seems to be expressing some Zen beliefs. And I come from a
pre-
> > christian sect, rather well thought of by the LDS.
> >
> > I actually did learned some of the non-religous lessons of Zen
> > Buddism when I was in my 20's. The most important things can be
> found
> > in a puff of air.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
> >
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., Star Raven
> <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > oh whoops... I think I'm a little behind on the times... it
was,
> > um, a
> > > belated welcome?
> > >
> > > --Star
> > >
> > > --- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > > >
> > > > > Cool, Good for you, and welcome to the group.
> > > >
> > > > Erm, he's been here at least 4 months I think :-P
> > > >
> > > > Hugh B
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen
Master
> > Hakuin
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> > > http://shopping.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-10-16 16:55:06 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: A new discussion group - continued
Toggle Shavian
Hi Everybody
What happenned?? There hasn't been a post for more than a week.
Is someone offended again? Is lurking contagious? Is Hugh on holidays?
Is there anything I can do???
I depend on this site
for intellectual stimulation, and I feel deprived.
Deprived from my main source of stimulating new ideas.
On another topic.
I was trying to find some good sample words, where the "Up" sound
is used to begin a syllable inside a word.
I only found it in pen-ultimate and in-advertently, so far.
It seems that the "Up" sounds degenerates into "Ado", in any
unstressed syllable, in normal English pronunciation.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. There is a lot of good stuff on www.omniglot.com
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
P.S. There is a lot of good stuff on www.omniglot.com.
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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From: carl easton
Date: 2003-10-17 01:20:26 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: A new discussion group - continued
Toggle Shavian
Hi Paul,
Sorry I haven't sent in another article for this discussion group. Paul I am a huge fan of omniglot.com. Because of it I am now proficient in over 7 writing systems. Which are as follows: 1. Shavian, 2. Unifon, 3. Deseret, 4. Aurek-besh, 5. Standard Galactic Alphabet, 6. Atlantean, and 7. Tengwar.
Oh yeah, I've been playing with the idea of creating an a priori language which uses shavian letters.
But I still love English. Though I know basic German and Swedish. So I just barely got the NTC's Dictionary of American English Pronunciation, from the library. I remember months ago this item was mentioned for standardization of Shavian Spelling. So finally I have a chance to look into it.
write you later,
Carl
paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
Hi Everybody
What happenned?? There hasn't been a post for more than a week.
Is someone offended again? Is lurking contagious? Is Hugh on holidays?
Is there anything I can do???
I depend on this site
for intellectual stimulation, and I feel deprived.
Deprived from my main source of stimulating new ideas.
On another topic.
I was trying to find some good sample words, where the "Up" sound
is used to begin a syllable inside a word.
I only found it in pen-ultimate and in-advertently, so far.
It seems that the "Up" sounds degenerates into "Ado", in any
unstressed syllable, in normal English pronunciation.
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. There is a lot of good stuff on www.omniglot.com
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
P.S. There is a lot of good stuff on www.omniglot.com.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
________________________________
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2003-10-17 03:53:57 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: A new discussion group - continued
Toggle Shavian
> Because of it I am now
> proficient in over 7 writing systems. Which are as follows: 1.
> Shavian, 2. Unifon, 3. Deseret, 4. Aurek-besh, 5. Standard Galactic
> Alphabet, 6. Atlantean, and 7. Tengwar.
The last three of these are made up by writers/video game programmers.
I'll stick to shavian, thanks.
:)
In the frigid frigid mountains of TN,
--Star
=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin
__________________________________
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2003-10-17 18:33:38 #
Subject: [shavian] A new discussion group - continued
Toggle Shavian
Hi Carl
Thanks for responding.
I find a wealth of information in Omniglot. For example it shows
that there are a number of working Syllabic Alphabets, where
diacritics can represent vowels. This support my contention that
Consonants need to be Primary and Vowels Secondary in size to
increase the recognisability of words. In an ideal, logically
consistent Alphabet, it would be the consonants, which stand out.
The Shaw Alphabet inculcates this principle to a certain extent by
making most of the simple vowel letters less than one half the size
of the consonant letters.
As a Canadian, I have Basic French, from school and a few trips to
Montreal. Also I have some Hebrew via self-study.
Glad you got the NTC's Dictionary of American English Pronunciation,
from the library. You'll find it invaluable for transliteration.
It's subset of the I.P.A. maps so nicely onto the Shaw Alphabet,
that it could have edited by an Americanized Kingsley Read.
There is simple one to one correspondence, which reflects the
importance of the Schwa (Ado) in Modern American pronunciation.
Regards, Paul Vandenbrink
P.S. Unifon is a nifty system too. I don't know why it has died out
as a teaching Alphabet.
--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Sorry I haven't sent in another article for this discussion
group. Paul I am a huge fan of omniglot.com. Because of it I am
now proficient in over 7 writing systems. Which are as follows: 1.
Shavian, 2. Unifon, 3. Deseret, 4. Aurek-besh, 5. Standard Galactic
Alphabet, 6. Atlantean, and 7. Tengwar.
>
> Oh yeah, I've been playing with the idea of creating an a priori
language which uses shavian letters.
>
> But I still love English. Though I know basic German and
Swedish. So I just barely got the NTC's Dictionary of American
English Pronunciation, from the library. I remember months ago this
item was mentioned for standardization of Shavian Spelling. So
finally I have a chance to look into it.
>
> write you later,
>
> Carl
>
>
> paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Everybody
>
> What happenned?? There hasn't been a post for more than a week.
> Is someone offended again? Is lurking contagious? Is Hugh on
holidays?
> Is there anything I can do???
> I depend on this site
> for intellectual stimulation, and I feel deprived.
> Deprived from my main source of stimulating new ideas.
>
> On another topic.
> I was trying to find some good sample words, where the "Up" sound
> is used to begin a syllable inside a word.
> I only found it in pen-ultimate and in-advertently, so far.
> It seems that the "Up" sounds degenerates into "Ado", in any
> unstressed syllable, in normal English pronunciation.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. There is a lot of good stuff on www.omniglot.com
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> P.S. There is a lot of good stuff on www.omniglot.com.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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