Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

I think it is necessary to obtain detailed information about american
accents in order to decide whether cot/caught pin/pen and others need
to be marked as distinct or not-distinct.

I have found what is probly the best website no this matter, it is
the TELSUR Project and Penn Uni. A few good maps and pages that are
easy to understand.

Though I may prejudge any conclusions a reader comes to, I can only
say that for me it has reinforced the belief that we must carry
maximum distinctions in our spelling.

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/

It will always be difficult to please everybody, but at least if we
have to make a decision for one spelling or the other, we can back it
up with scientific data.

Thanks
Joseph


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Star
I think you misconstrued Carl here. He is not calling for removal of
the embedded vowel letters in all small one syllable words.
I believe that he just wants to increase the list of standard
abbreviations from 4 to a maximum of 20, based on using a single
letter.

Modern Hebrew actually does use some of the letters to indicate vowel
sounds in stressed positions. Say for example if vowel sound ends a
word. Unhappily many
Hebrew letters can be read up to four different ways. Usually the
primary representation is consonantal, but the secondary
representation could be a vowel or another consonant sound
altogether. Hebrew letter can be optionally marked by dots to
indicate alternate pronunciation, but typically, these annotated
letters are only used by school children and in their books.
Unannotated Hebrew could be the basis of an extremely effective
cipher. as there is almost no redundancy, to speak of.
For an alphabet with only 22 letters (+ 5 word final forms), it is
quite difficult to learn.

This is incompatible with our intention to make Shavian totally clear
with a single letter for every sound. And we do want Shavian to be
easy to learn. Easy enough that you do not ever have to refer back to
T.O.

I have personal interest in how Hewbrew uses the Schwa and Dots, so
effectively in a way that further minimizes the number of Vowel
letters which are needed to completely represent the sound of word.

But there is something here in Hebrew, that might be interesting to
apply to English.
Consider that if we had 2 or more acceptible pronunciations for an
English word, and they are spelt slightly differently, It might be
possible to use the shortest/simpliest/most logical representation,
all other things being equal.

For example, for a number of English words, the Schwa is commonly
used in speech to replace unstressed short vowels, but enunciating
the original short vowel sound provides a clearly understandable and
acceptable if somewhat stilted pronunciation.

banana = bAnAna or banAna
arrive = DFv or arFv
behind = bahFnd or bihFnd

So to eliminate variation in the representation of these short vague
sounds, we just make it a convention, to use Schwa in all of the
indistinct cases.

We need to develop some conventions, stylistic rules, to simplify
writing Shavian, rather than having to always chose one valid
representation over the other. I want to escape this quagmire of
vowel sounds, and the various levels of vowel distinctiveness.

Regards, Paul V.



--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian
includes
> vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
> frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew the
> vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if we
> have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
> confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
> differently)
>
> --Star
>
> --- carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
Mr.
> > Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something
to
> > the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested
> > some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should
concentrate on
> > Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels when
the
> > consonant sets get confusing.
> >
> > This suggestion in up in the air.
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> http://shopping.yahoo.com


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Everyone
Mea Culpae
Just to clarify my perverse interest in the tiny Schwa.
And I do have a strong interest in maximizing Schwa use.
I find Schwas in 3 distinct locations.
1. Stand-alone syllables, usually at the beginning of word. (i.e.
ado, among, along, a)
2. ending a syllable. (i.e. idea, tomato, banana, Coca Cola)
3. making a consonant into a standalone syllable. (i.e. bottom,
blossom, listen, foxes, patience)

Why is such a small sound, a minimal vowel sound in fact, always
found at vowel boundaries?

Regards, Paul V.




--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> I think you misconstrued Carl here. He is not calling for removal
of
> the embedded vowel letters in all small one syllable words.
> I believe that he just wants to increase the list of standard
> abbreviations from 4 to a maximum of 20, based on using a single
> letter.
>
> Modern Hebrew actually does use some of the letters to indicate
vowel
> sounds in stressed positions. Say for example if vowel sound ends a
> word. Unhappily many
> Hebrew letters can be read up to four different ways. Usually the
> primary representation is consonantal, but the secondary
> representation could be a vowel or another consonant sound
> altogether. Hebrew letter can be optionally marked by dots to
> indicate alternate pronunciation, but typically, these annotated
> letters are only used by school children and in their books.
> Unannotated Hebrew could be the basis of an extremely effective
> cipher. as there is almost no redundancy, to speak of.
> For an alphabet with only 22 letters (+ 5 word final forms), it is
> quite difficult to learn.
>
> This is incompatible with our intention to make Shavian totally
clear
> with a single letter for every sound. And we do want Shavian to be
> easy to learn. Easy enough that you do not ever have to refer back
to
> T.O.
>
> I have personal interest in how Hewbrew uses the Schwa and Dots, so
> effectively in a way that further minimizes the number of Vowel
> letters which are needed to completely represent the sound of word.
>
> But there is something here in Hebrew, that might be interesting to
> apply to English.
> Consider that if we had 2 or more acceptible pronunciations for an
> English word, and they are spelt slightly differently, It might be
> possible to use the shortest/simpliest/most logical representation,
> all other things being equal.
>
> For example, for a number of English words, the Schwa is commonly
> used in speech to replace unstressed short vowels, but enunciating
> the original short vowel sound provides a clearly understandable
and
> acceptable if somewhat stilted pronunciation.
>
> banana = bAnAna or banAna
> arrive = DFv or arFv
> behind = bahFnd or bihFnd
>
> So to eliminate variation in the representation of these short
vague
> sounds, we just make it a convention, to use Schwa in all of the
> indistinct cases.
>
> We need to develop some conventions, stylistic rules, to simplify
> writing Shavian, rather than having to always chose one valid
> representation over the other. I want to escape this quagmire of
> vowel sounds, and the various levels of vowel distinctiveness.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian
> includes
> > vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
> > frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew
the
> > vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if
we
> > have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
> > confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
> > differently)
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> > > Hi Folks,
> > >
> > > In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of
what
> Mr.
> > > Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian.
Something
> to
> > > the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He
suggested
> > > some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should
> concentrate on
> > > Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels
when
> the
> > > consonant sets get confusing.
> > >
> > > This suggestion in up in the air.
> > >
> > > best regards,
> > >
> > > Carl
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> >
> >
> > =====
> > From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
> Hakuin
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
> > http://shopping.yahoo.com


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Rent DVDs from home.
Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping
& No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> 2. ending a syllable. (i.e. idea, tomato, banana, Coca Cola)

Tomato ends in a long o where I come from. :)

=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Joseph (stetsdigs@...) writes:

>>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all others it is preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.<<

Hey, I resemble that remark!

My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic feature in American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined to disappear, along with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals), and much else. It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original Shaw Alphabet. It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think it's a single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always argue about in English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).

GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course he did not live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George V, who as a southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic distinction at all.

I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both born 1906), who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage of western Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely Scots (not sure from where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.

"A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable micromyzont rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit surprised that the young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she sucked on her microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do / When you / etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I could not hear his rendition of the sound.

Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever discussed how you represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h' (does not contrast 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want to analyze it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English speakers (me, anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high contrast load for these three phonemes.

As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates of "write Shavian the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent reference to Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled on it, used as a bookmark.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1732163/R=0/SIG=11n0nglqg/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30510&media=zone>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1732163/rand=853027574>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Joseph Smith wrote:

> I hate to become argumentative, but quikscript is often touted as an
> improvement on shavian, id est Read's second try. But this is not
> true, as quikscript represents a throwing out of the ideology of
> shavian in favour of short term gains.

I don't know what this means. My understanding from Read himself was
that he made the changes that resulted in Quikscript as a result of the
trials in Shavian.

> It looks pretty ridiculous in
> the computer age to insist that a cursive script is better than a
> printed one.

I don't know about you, but I mainly use Quikscript to write for myself
with a pen. Even in this "computer age, I don't think Bic is in danger
of pen sales crashing in the near future. I certainly don't see anyone
on this site writing in Shavian even though that would be on computer.
The point is that for personal writing a script which connects letters
is very convenient for the same reason that most adults write in cursive
rather than printing. Quikscript does not mandate the connection of
letters, it just makes it possible in many cases. Since Quikscript
works fine with a computer font, I fail to see how that is ridiculous.

> Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that
> someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many
> parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in
> all others it is prserved by an aging population. Within fifty years
> at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.

That is your prediction. Perhaps, it will be correct. But in any
event, having a letter for those who use the sound, does not require you
to use it. I have noticed that those who decry "hw" are those whose own
idiolect doesn't have it.

> I am sorry for saying this, but it beats me why you stick to
> quikscript. I fail to see the attraction.

I am sorry for saying this, but it beats me why you stick to Shavian. I
fail to see the attraction.

Paige Gabhart

> When we look at the Quickscript manual, (you can get it from the
> Read_Alphabet
> > group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet ) Read
> suggests this,
> > and even more.
> >
> > Then again Quickscript is actually full of abbreviations, and it
> might take
> > a while to learn them, but it really saves a great deal of work,
> and the
> > words will still be recognisable.
> >
> > For those of you here who don't know: Quickscript was developed by
> Kinsley
> > Read, who developed Shavian first. Quickscript can be seen as an
> improvement
> > of Shavian. Some of the characters are quite the same, some are
> different.
> > The best source of information for Quickscript is still Mr. Read's
> original
> > manual, which you can get from the group. There is very little
> other material
> > available on the web, I probably have the only in-depth website
> about it
> > (which also deals with a method to my Quickscript typing on the
> computer
> > easier).
> >
> > You can view the website at http://quickscript.teraiten.vze.com
> >
> > I believe it could still use some work. But I placed it there
> mainly so people
> > who are new to Quickscript (or Shavian) can quickly get their hands
> on useful
> > materials.
> >
> > Ewout
> >
> > >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> > >To: shavian@...
> > >From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
> > >Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > >Subject: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
> > >Reply-To: shavian@...
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi Folks,
> >
> > In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
> Mr. Read
> > mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the
> effect
> > of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four
> of which
> > we currently
> > >se) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these
> abbreviations
> > and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.
> >
> > This suggestion in up in the air.
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!
> > >
> > The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> ADVERTISEMENT
> click here
> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1732161/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30509&media=atkins>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.




------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Star
Sorry about Tomato. I should have elucidated exactly which syllable
that the the Schwa could be found. It is in the first syllable in the
word Tomato. I was rushed. late for a class, again.
I corrected it below, and gave few more examples.

Just to clarify my perverse interest in the tiny Schwa.
And I do have a strong interest in maximizing Schwa use, by the way.

I seem to find Schwas in just 3 distinct locations.
1. Stand-alone syllables, usually at the beginning of word. (i.e.
ado, among, along, a)
2. ending a syllable usually at the end of word. (i.e. idea, tomato,
banana, Coca Cola), but occassionly in the first or middle syllable
of a word. (tomato, suppose, interesting (intarestiN), insulated
(insalEtad), inadvertant (inadvxtant)
3. making a consonant or consonant cluster into a standalone
syllable. (i.e. bottom, girls, whiten, lighten, picket, regarded,
blossom, listen, foxes, patience, impotence, important)

Why is such a small sound, a minimal vowel sound in fact, always
found at vowel boundaries?

Regards, Paul V.




--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
>
> > 2. ending a syllable. (i.e. idea, tomato, banana, Coca Cola)
>
> Tomato ends in a long o where I come from. :)
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Joseph & Bob
While I can't really speak to the "wh" issue, let me describe a
difficulty with using \hw\.
That is how I would write the spanish name Juan. (hwYn)
which is a distnctly different sound than "w" or "wh".
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. we need to avoid diagraphs, that have 2 fifferent valid
pronunciations. I'd rather use "woe" for both "w" and "wh" ot create
a new letter.
Regards, Paul V.
++++++++++++++++++++++attached+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Joseph (stetsdigs@h...) writes:
>
> >>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised
that someone
> as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts
the
> distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all
others it is
> preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
sounds will cease to
> be heard.<<
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark!
>
> My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic feature
in
> American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined to
disappear, along
> with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals), and
much else.
> It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original Shaw
Alphabet.
> It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think
it's a
> single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always
argue about in
> English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).
>
> GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course he
did not
> live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
V, who as a
> southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
distinction at all.
>
> I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both
born 1906),
> who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage of
western
> Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely Scots
(not sure from
> where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.
>
> "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable
micromyzont
> rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit
surprised that the
> young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she
sucked on her
> microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do /
When you /
> etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I could
not hear his
> rendition of the sound.
>
> Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever discussed
how you
> represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h' (does
not contrast
> 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want to
analyze
> it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English
speakers (me,
> anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high
contrast load
> for these three phonemes.
>
> As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates
of "write Shavian
> the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent reference
to
> Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled on
it, used as a
> bookmark.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Star,

I agree.

Carl

Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian includes
vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew the
vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if we
have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
differently)

--Star

--- carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr.
> Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to
> the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested
> some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should concentrate on
> Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels when the
> consonant sets get confusing.
>
> This suggestion in up in the air.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com <http://shopping.yahoo.com/>


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .


________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears <http://launch.yahoo.com/video/?1093432&fs=1&redirectURL=http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/>

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705213030:HM/A=1754016/R=0/SIG=11pv1u2ju/*http://www.ediets.com/start.cfm?code=30529&media=atkins>
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.4074964.5287182.1261774/D=egroupmail/S=:HM/A=1754016/rand=994643048>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Hey Bob

I hope you didn't take the remark about 'hw' in bad spirits, I never
meant to say you were archaic! In fact I never knew that such a sound
existed until a couple of years ago when I read about it regarding
Old English. I can make the sound pretty well when I want to, but
people definitely pick it up if I drop it in conversation.

One person to find out about for you is Fred Dibnah. He is from
Lancashire, about your age, and presents tv programs in Britain on
engineering history. A steeplejack by trade, his presenting skills
are greatly enhanced by his almost unique enunciation. He is the only
person I have ever heard say 'hwole' and 'hwo'!

By the by, I'm not Cockney, but Northern/Midland in accent and
regularly miss out my 'h' (altogether, not only beginning). I don't
tend to have a problem with normal writing or Shavian, I just miss
the sound out.

With this and other things in my accent, a prostitute would properly
be called an 'Ma' in Shavian!

Thanks
Joseph


--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Joseph (stetsdigs@h...) writes:
>
> >>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised
that someone
> as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts
the
> distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all
others it is
> preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
sounds will cease to
> be heard.<<
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark!
>
> My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic feature
in
> American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined to
disappear, along
> with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals), and
much else.
> It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original Shaw
Alphabet.
> It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think
it's a
> single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always
argue about in
> English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).
>
> GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course he
did not
> live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
V, who as a
> southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
distinction at all.
>
> I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both
born 1906),
> who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage of
western
> Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely Scots
(not sure from
> where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.
>
> "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable
micromyzont
> rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit
surprised that the
> young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she
sucked on her
> microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do /
When you /
> etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I could
not hear his
> rendition of the sound.
>
> Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever discussed
how you
> represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h' (does
not contrast
> 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want to
analyze
> it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English
speakers (me,
> anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high
contrast load
> for these three phonemes.
>
> As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates
of "write Shavian
> the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent reference
to
> Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled on
it, used as a
> bookmark.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville, Tennessee


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles.
No Late Fees & Free Shipping.
Try Netflix for FREE!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vhSowB/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/mx3olB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/