Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi Phil
I guess I can pledge $20 U.S.
Please send note to pvandenbrink@... on where I can mail or
transfer money.
Regards, Paul V.
____________________attached___________________________

--- In shavian@..., "Newton, Philip" <philip.newton@d...>
wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > My Mistake. I thought Hugh owned the site, as well the forums.
>
> No; he operates the forums, but I own the shavian.org domain.
>
> > It would be nice to keep the forums. Do you need contributions to
> > keep it afloat.
>
> If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes.
Otherwise
> they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period
expires.
> (Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the
end of
> October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched
over to the
> higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was
exceeding my
> space allocation.)
>
> Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just
that
> things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for
the space
> the domain currently uses.
>
> I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be
looking for at
> least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in
contributions in
> order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the
10MB
> space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the
Ikonboard.
>
> Pledges and contributions are welcome.
>
> > I use it a lot.
> > Please consider yourself included in laudatory comment from one
and
> > all.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@d...>
> All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


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Thanks for your input

able Ebl Ebal <-done, do we agree 'm' 'n' and 'l' have
schwa?

am Am am <-both dic.com and my own dic give 'Am', what
about 'Fm' for 'I'm'?

among amuN ?? <-is there a change, or is this an error?

an An an <-perhaps both 'a' and 'an' should have
stressed and unstressed forms?

animal Animal Anamal <-done, the unstressed vowel is unclear

apple Apl Apal <-done

arrange DEnJ xEnJ <-the first vowel should stay unstressed

arrive DFv arFv <-as above, i find dic.com and my own dic
agree

before bifP bafP <-done, see 'animal'

began bigAn bIgAn <-\ both dic.com and my dic give a short 'i'
-but i can understand your point well
behind bihFnd bIhFnd <-/ a case of stress, i can't decide it

believe bilIv balIv <-done, vowel unclear like 'animal'
and 'before'

body bodI bYdI <-cot/caught merger? do you have both sounds?
should we keep maximum differences? a big issue i feel

box boks bYx <-as above

boy boq bq <-done, my mistake


I hope others agree with the changes we've made, and perhaps we could
talk a little on those three others. The cot/caught issue is very
difficult, but the other two are just a matter of stress and they
shouldn't cause much difficulty if we talk them over.

If these are the changes from a and b, then things aren't too bad. I
think we are already over 85% in agreement. Most of these spellings
were made from a British dictionary with a little of my own input,
but now I am referring to dic.com in order to gain a better american
view.

Thanks
Joseph


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Hi Paul,

Sorry for using unphonetic symbols. I now carry in my wallet the shavian key of letter names with me. So that when I go to the library and write articles for this group and be clearer.

1. I pronounce 'grass' as 'gag'-'roar'-'ash'-'so'
2. I pronounce the last letter 'y' as an 'eat'
3. And I pronounce 'sure' with 'array' and I pronounce 'shore' with 'or'

hope this helps,

Carl

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

Hi Carl & Joseph
Hey Carl. Can you use use the Shaw letters or provide more samples.
I don't know how uhr and ohr would be pronounced by you.

I think Joseph is using a dictionary where the pronunciation is
based on some version of British RP pronunciation.

1. I pronounce 'grass' with 'ae' (A) sound.
2. I pronounce words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' with
an "ee" (I) sound'?
> 3. 'sure' does not rhyme with 'shore' for me.
Sure is Sx or sher. It rhymes with surge, ar=ray, urge and the
British pronunciation of "err".

As for working on your the proposed standard American pronunciation
word list in Shaw, I have already put a small list on Hugh's
bulletin (Ikon) board at www.shavian.org.
Why don't you do the same with your 1000 words?
Cut and paste your dictionary list into a new topic posting over
there.
As well as being easier to access, it allows the originator to edit
his post. You can break it up into letters. (Thanks Star) Do all the
A words to start. Just for example.
Once you have it there I will check all your words, and point out
any errors or differences from my pronunciation that I find.
My accent is Mid-western and Stodgy, quite middle of the road.

Regards, Paul V.




--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Joseph,
>
> 1. The vowel in 'grass' in my accent group is a 'ae' like
in 'cat' or 'at'
> 2. For words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' in my accent
group end in an 'ee' sound.
> 3. In my accent group 'sure' is pronounced 'shuhr' and 'shore'
is pronounced 'shohr'.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Carl
> Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I have already keyed in one thousand words, and am well willing to
do
> more. What I need is input from other people. I want to know how
you
> speak so that my spellings are not based on only one dictionary
and
> one person.
>
> If you would like the file, please give me your email adress, it
is
> currently Word Document format, but be warned I'll pester you for
> your thoughts.
>
> Several askings first though on your preferences:
>
> 1. Should 'grass' have 'y' as a vowel or 'A'? My dictionary says
> former, but I say the latter.
>
> 2. Should words ending like 'early' and 'regularly' have 'i'
or 'I'?
> Again my dictionary says the former, but I say latter.
>
> 3. Does 'sure' rhyme with 'shore' for you? It does for me.
>
> I need input from everybody!
>
> By the way, I think 'Preferred Spelling' would be a better name.
It
> gives the idea of a standard, but without sounding like we want to
> squish variation underfoot.
>
> Thanks in anticipation
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Philip Newton"
<philip.newton@g...>
> wrote:
> > On 22 Oct 2003 at 22:31, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > I vote for Dictionary pronunciation. Simpler. Now can we agree
on
> a
> > > Dictionary. Penguin for British and NYC for American.
> > > Other suggestions?
> >
> > How about using existing computer-encoded pronouncing
dictionaries?
> For
> > example, the Moby Pronunciator for American, and I'm fairly sure
> I've
> > heard of a similar effort from the UK which could be used for
> British.
> > That would save the effort of keying in thousands of
pronunciations
> > oneself.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Philip
> > --
> > Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>
>
>
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Hi Folks,

In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr. Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.

This suggestion in up in the air.

best regards,

Carl

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When we look at the Quickscript manual, (you can get it from the Read_Alphabet
group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet ) Read suggests this,
and even more.

Then again Quickscript is actually full of abbreviations, and it might take
a while to learn them, but it really saves a great deal of work, and the
words will still be recognisable.

For those of you here who don't know: Quickscript was developed by Kinsley
Read, who developed Shavian first. Quickscript can be seen as an improvement
of Shavian. Some of the characters are quite the same, some are different.
The best source of information for Quickscript is still Mr. Read's original
manual, which you can get from the group. There is very little other material
available on the web, I probably have the only in-depth website about it
(which also deals with a method to my Quickscript typing on the computer
easier).

You can view the website at http://quickscript.teraiten.vze.com

I believe it could still use some work. But I placed it there mainly so people
who are new to Quickscript (or Shavian) can quickly get their hands on useful
materials.

Ewout

>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@...
>From: carl easton <shavintel16@...>
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>
>
>Hi Folks,

In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr. Read
mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the effect
of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four of which
we currently
>se) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these abbreviations
and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.

This suggestion in up in the air.

best regards,

Carl


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Hi Paul,

My vote -- Encarta.

thanks,

Carl

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

Hi Everone

Hmmn.
No Dissenters at this moment. Although it appears, everyone has own
favorite English Dictionary.

Resolved. Let us use a Dictionary, as our final arbitrator, for
determining preferred pronunciation.
Please refer to Dictionary, whenever possible. (ie. AH, MW, Web IW,
NYC, Peng, Gage, Ox, dic.com)

Dissenters please hold your peace.

Regards, Paul V.

____________attached____________________-


--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
>
>
> > On 23 Oct 2003 at 19:25, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should
be
> > > our arbitrator, for determining preferred pronunciation.
Dissenters
> > > speak now? Or forever hold your peace.
> >
> > I agree in principle. It depends on the dictionary :)
> >
> > I would prefer one that corresponds to the dialect in _Androcles_
(that
> > is, rhotic, but that differentiates between e.g. father/bother,
> > grass/mass, Mary/marry/merry, etc.).
>
> Then try my preferred dictionary for Androcles spelling reference -
the
> American Heritage dictionary. It uses rhotic spellings but
differentiates
> nicely between all the sounds in Shavian (including ado/up,
err/array,
> if/eat, all the "problem pairs").
>
> www.dictionary.com uses this dictionary along with an excellent
> pronunciation guide so it's easy to check for help on Shavian
spelling
> simply by typing in a word.
>
> It's not as annoyingly un-rhotic as Oxford but not as overly
phonetically
> simplistic as Merriam-Webster.
>
> Hugh B



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Hello

I went to your site and thought it was very good. it was well made
and very presentable. But it said two things about shavian which
aren't strictly true.

The first was about the shape of the letters. There is no real
problem with most people reading shavian. Use makes reading quicker
and easier, just like with latin, and no mix-up between the shapes
occurs. Only readers with perception problems confuse 'p' and 'b' in
latin, and the same is true of shavian.

The second is about the four stress letters. 'Air' is a distinct
sound with different lip shape, 'up' is a non-r sound that is much
fuller that schwa, 'err' and 'array' are similar, but it is useful
for british speakers (and others) for whom the word 'murmur' has two
different vowels.

I hate to become argumentative, but quikscript is often touted as an
improvement on shavian, id est Read's second try. But this is not
true, as quikscript represents a throwing out of the ideology of
shavian in favour of short term gains. It looks pretty ridiculous in
the computer age to insist that a cursive script is better than a
printed one.

Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that
someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many
parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in
all others it is prserved by an aging population. Within fifty years
at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.

I am sorry for saying this, but it beats me why you stick to
quikscript. I fail to see the attraction.

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., adsl413593@t... wrote:
> When we look at the Quickscript manual, (you can get it from the
Read_Alphabet
> group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Read_Alphabet ) Read
suggests this,
> and even more.
>
> Then again Quickscript is actually full of abbreviations, and it
might take
> a while to learn them, but it really saves a great deal of work,
and the
> words will still be recognisable.
>
> For those of you here who don't know: Quickscript was developed by
Kinsley
> Read, who developed Shavian first. Quickscript can be seen as an
improvement
> of Shavian. Some of the characters are quite the same, some are
different.
> The best source of information for Quickscript is still Mr. Read's
original
> manual, which you can get from the group. There is very little
other material
> available on the web, I probably have the only in-depth website
about it
> (which also deals with a method to my Quickscript typing on the
computer
> easier).
>
> You can view the website at http://quickscript.teraiten.vze.com
>
> I believe it could still use some work. But I placed it there
mainly so people
> who are new to Quickscript (or Shavian) can quickly get their hands
on useful
> materials.
>
> Ewout
>
> >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> >To: shavian@...
> >From: carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
> >Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >Subject: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
> >Reply-To: shavian@...
> >
> >
> >Hi Folks,
>
> In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what
Mr. Read
> mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to the
effect
> of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested some, (four
of which
> we currently
> >se) maybe we should concentrate on Consonants like for these
abbreviations
> and only use vowels when the consonant sets get confusing.
>
> This suggestion in up in the air.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!
> >
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search


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On Friday, Oct 24, 2003, at 17:45 Europe/Paris, Newton, Philip wrote:

> If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes. Otherwise
> they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period expires.
> (Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the end of
> October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched over
> to the
> higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was exceeding
> my
> space allocation.)
>
> Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just
> that
> things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for the
> space
> the domain currently uses.
>
> I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be looking
> for at
> least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in contributions in
> order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the
> 10MB
> space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the
> Ikonboard.
>
> Pledges and contributions are welcome.
>
I run my own servers. Perhaps you would like me to host shavian.org
for you. I would not charge for the server space nor for DNS services
if you want me to handle that as well. Of course there may be slight
downtimes on one of the servers (but hopefully never both). I would
need to know what capabilities you need for it because I severely limit
what can hit my servers (for example ftp is not currently permitted
into my machines).

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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On Saturday, Oct 25, 2003, at 11:24 Europe/Paris, Scott Harrison wrote:

>
> On Friday, Oct 24, 2003, at 17:45 Europe/Paris, Newton, Philip wrote:
>
>> If I receive contributions, I will keep up the forums; yes. Otherwise
>> they'll be taken down shortly when the current billing period expires.
>> (Apparently, this is the end of November -- I thought it was the end
>> of
>> October, but I just saw that I got a free month when I switched over
>> to the
>> higher plan at short notice after my provider told me I was exceeding
>> my
>> space allocation.)
>>
>> Again, apologies. I'm not doing this to blackmail anyone; it's just
>> that
>> things are getting too expensive for comfort if I keep paying for the
>> space
>> the domain currently uses.
>>
>> I mentioned the prices in my earlier email; basically, I'd be looking
>> for at
>> least around US$ 10 a quarter (or US$ 40-50 a year) in contributions
>> in
>> order to keep the current 50-MB level, or I'll be going back to the
>> 10MB
>> space I had originally, which will mean I'll have to archive the
>> Ikonboard.
>>
>> Pledges and contributions are welcome.
>>
> I run my own servers. Perhaps you would like me to host shavian.org
> for you. I would not charge for the server space nor for DNS services
> if you want me to handle that as well. Of course there may be slight
> downtimes on one of the servers (but hopefully never both). I would
> need to know what capabilities you need for it because I severely limit
> what can hit my servers (for example ftp is not currently permitted
> into my machines).
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
>
>
Sorry to followup but I also wanted to mention that I run the mailman
software package as well, so should be able to have a mailing list
hosted on shavian.org as well. This would allow us to move to that
list vice staying on yahoo if that were desired.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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Quit trying to make this into hebrew! This is shavian. Shavian includes
vowel sounds. I've heard this suggestion several times, and I am
frustrated with it. This is for the english language. In hebrew the
vowels are inferred, but in english, it is much more difficult if we
have more words than most any other language, there is bound to be
confusion: Think thank, throw threw, poor pore (which I pronounce
differently)

--Star

--- carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> In search of a preferred shavian spelling, I am reminded of what Mr.
> Read mentioned in Androcles and the Lion about Shavian. Something to
> the effect of using abbreviations for common words. He suggested
> some, (four of which we currently use) maybe we should concentrate on
> Consonants like for these abbreviations and only use vowels when the
> consonant sets get confusing.
>
> This suggestion in up in the air.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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