Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi

Juan would be 'wAn' for me. No need to worry anyway, foreign words
always cause difficulties in every language, thats why most of the
regularly used words from other languages are given english sounds.

With your own name, if I may suggest so, pronounciation must have
changed. I would say 'vAn dan briNk', but a Dutchman may say
something different. (Please enlighten me.)

Also with reference to your earlier remark about vowels: it is true
that most of our problems arise from these and not consonants. A good
understanding and partition of vowel sounds would make everything
much easier.

For me Shavian has never given a single problem concerning consonants.

Ta
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Joseph & Bob
> While I can't really speak to the "wh" issue, let me describe a
> difficulty with using \hw\.
> That is how I would write the spanish name Juan. (hwYn)
> which is a distnctly different sound than "w" or "wh".
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. we need to avoid diagraphs, that have 2 fifferent valid
> pronunciations. I'd rather use "woe" for both "w" and "wh" ot
create
> a new letter.
> Regards, Paul V.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++attached+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> --- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> > Joseph (stetsdigs@h...) writes:
> >
> > >>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised
> that someone
> > as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many parts
> the
> > distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in all
> others it is
> > preserved by an aging population. Within fifty years at most, the
> sounds will cease to
> > be heard.<<
> >
> > Hey, I resemble that remark!
> >
> > My speech makes this phonemic distinction. It's an archaic
feature
> in
> > American usage, probably of Scots origin. Indeed, it's destined
to
> disappear, along
> > with remaining case and tense distinctions (including plurals),
and
> much else.
> > It's my only phonemic contrast not represented in the original
Shaw
> Alphabet.
> > It seems simple enough to write the sound as 'hw', though I think
> it's a
> > single phoneme rather than a cluster (something you can always
> argue about in
> > English phonetics till the whippets and the wombats come home).
> >
> > GBS's original intent was his proposed alphabet (which of course
he
> did not
> > live to see) represent the speech of his late Majesty King George
> V, who as a
> > southern British speaker would not have made this phonemic
> distinction at all.
> >
> > I'm 64 years old, and my speech is similar to my parents' (both
> born 1906),
> > who were educated speakers with the somewhat hypercorrect usage
of
> western
> > Oregon where they both grew up. My maternal line is entirely
Scots
> (not sure from
> > where) - my mother trilled the 'r' in 'three', but I do not.
> >
> > "A Prairie Home Companion" yesterday inflicted a miserable
> micromyzont
> > rendition of Irving Berlin's "What'll I Do?", and I was a bit
> surprised that the
> > young woman (whose every overproduced gasp could be heard as she
> sucked on her
> > microphone) had a very clearly enunciated /hw/ - "What'll I do /
> When you /
> > etc." She outwhined her male counterpoint sufficiently that I
could
> not hear his
> > rendition of the sound.
> >
> > Is there a Cockney on this list? I don't think we've ever
discussed
> how you
> > represent the speech of someone who lacks a word-initial 'h'
(does
> not contrast
> > 'h' with zero or with a glottal stop, depending on how you want
to
> analyze
> > it). This contrastive environment is very difficult for English
> speakers (me,
> > anyway) to get control of - for example, Hawaiian has fairly high
> contrast load
> > for these three phonemes.
> >
> > As old-timers on this list know, I am one of the advocates
> of "write Shavian
> > the way you speak" - though I confess to fairly frequent
reference
> to
> > Androcles, with a card with a list of useful examples scribbled
on
> it, used as a
> > bookmark.
> >
> > Bob Richmond
> > Knoxville, Tennessee


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Hi Folks,

I would just like to make clear my current position on Shavian.
1. I don't own a computer, therefore I don't have any fonts to use.
2. I handwrite Shavian and occasionally Quickscript.
3. I prefer Shavian out of all alternative writing systems.
4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
5. I use both the dictionary and my personal pronouncation to determine spelling.
6. I agree with you folks on the need for a preferred shavian spelling (So that there can be Shavian books published.
7. And I think you guys are doing a good job locationing a preferred pronouncation.

best regards,

Carl


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On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:



4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.



I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that is set up in a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts that I have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is the format that is used for self-publishing. And the other question is how much does self-publishing cost?

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

How can we move forward?

What do people see as the long term goals for Shavian?

How do we achieve those goals?

What obstacles are in the way? and how do we remove those obstacles?

Have you a wishlist for Shavian in the coming weeks/months/years?

What are you doing right now to get more out of Shavian?

Can we do more?

Thanks
Joseph


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Hi Joseph!

>>I hope you didn't take the remark about 'hw' in bad spirits, I never meant to say you were archaic! In fact I never knew that such a sound existed until a couple of years ago when I read about it regarding Old English. I can make the sound pretty well when I want to, but people definitely pick it up if I drop it in conversation.<<

When I was a child in the late 1940's my mother (a hypercorrect Oregon speaker who'd taught high school English in Oregon City) emphasized phonemic control of /hw/ as a feature of cultivated speech, and occasionally corrected my deviations from orthographically derived pronunciation. I recall also being drilled on this by a grade school teacher in Atlanta GA - I don't remember her dialect - who taught us a verse that went something like:
whether the weather be cold,
or whether the weather be hot,
we'll weather the weather, whatever the weather,
whether we like it or not.

>> Fred Dibnah. He is from Lancashire, [sixtysomething], and presents tv programs in Britain on
engineering history. A steeplejack by trade, his presenting skills are greatly enhanced by his almost unique enunciation. He is the only person I have ever heard say 'hwole' and 'hwo'!<<

The new OED says about 'whole': "Pronunciations with initial (w) over an area extending from Somerset to north-east Yorkshire." They don't mention w pronunciations for 'who' or 'whore'. The OED has an article under "WH" which will tell you more about this elusive phoneme than you want to know.

Among younger folks in the US, the last word is spelled ho, and pronounced exactly like the agricultural implement. Not so far from Gothic bishop Wulfila in the 4th century, who has Jesus render "thou shalt not commit adultery" as 'ni horinos'.

Spanish 'Juan' is phonetically rather different, though the English speaker with a phonemic /hw/ hears the Spanish sound as the English (at least I do. I speak some Spanish, though not with very great fluency, and regard the phonetic usage of Mexico City as normative). I've seen Spanish representations of American English with 'what' spelled "juát".

Didn't Lord Byron pronounce it "don jooen"?

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee USA

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>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@...
>From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...>
>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:57:15 -0000
>Subject: Re: Betr: [shavian] Some of what Kingley Read mentioned
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>

[snip]

>It looks pretty ridiculous in the computer age to insist
>that a cursive script is better than a printed one.

I don't really type using Quickscript. I only write it with a pen. Even though
I developed stuff to make typing easier.

>Also the 'hw' letter is qiuckly becoming dated. I am surprised that
>someone as intelligent as Read did not foresee its decline. In many
>parts the distinction between 'hw' and 'w' is completely lost, and in
>all others it is prserved by an aging population. Within fifty years
>at most, the sounds will cease to be heard.

Now that you mention it, I never used the 'hw' character myself. I listened
to my own speech and I can't seem to find myself making a distinction between
'hw' and 'w'.

I am sorry for saying this, but it beats
>e why you stick to
quikscript. I fail to see the attraction.

I prefer Quickscript because:

1. faster handwriting
2. some characters are more than just
rotations of other ones, making them
easier to memorise. (t/d, p/b, k/g, f/v, y/w, m/n, r/l)
3. I don't have to bother figuring out whether to use up or ado and
err or air.
4. no need to use ligatures separately as I'm creating them
automatically by connecting the letters.
5. personal taste.

I used a lot of information from the 'Second Shaw.htm' file in the 'Resources'
folder of the Read Alphabet Yahoo Group. It also lists some arguments why
Quickscript should be 'better than' Shavian. But take a good look at the
last sentence of the file:

"Whether or not its enhancements and simplification, ease of reading etc.
are merits that make it superior for ordinary printed matter, remain to be
seen through usage and experimentation."

I don't really care if people use either Shavian or Quickscript. Most of
the writing is for themselves, so if I can't read it quickly, it usually
isn't a problem, because i wasn't supposed to read it anyway.

If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the font and
I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like.

I do feel though that the differences between Shavian and Quickscript are
too big for me to use both systems at the same time. That's a pity though.

What might be interesting is to create a special 'print font' for Quickscript.
Which replaces some characters by more legible, more elaborate, but similar
look-a-likes. This would make the diphthongs for example easier to read on
the screen. But they shouldn't be too different otherwise we'd have to spend
some time learning them.

For example the 'Awl' character 'Y' could be made more squareish to make
it easier to distinguish from 'on' 'o'.

Ewout Stam
/EvQt stym

>Thanks
>Joseph


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OpenOffice.Org is a free, open source product from the website of the
same name, and can generate PDF files. as for normal self publishing,
that depends on the publisher. Xlibris for instance is only print by
order publishing company, while others will print certain numbers for a
fee. I do agree, however, that it would aid in both our reading speeds
and to spread "the gospel of Shaw" to others to have more than one book
that's been so long out of print it's nearly impossible to find.

--Star

--- Scott Harrison <scott@...> wrote:
>
> On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:
>
> > 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
> >
> I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that is set up
> in
> a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts that
> I
> have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is the
> format
> that is used for self-publishing. And the other question is how much
>
> does self-publishing cost?
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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Hi Carl

Your position is eminently reasonable.
I use Shaw for taking notes, especially notes, I don't want to be
readily readable by someone looking over my shoulder, names, phone
numbers, passwords, swear words, private thoughts, reminders.

Any alphabet has to usable in a printed form, whether by hand,
typewriter, computer, PDA, whatever. Cursive writing may be less
valuable, but i won't count it out either.

Thanks for your encouragement on all of us developing a consistent
style/system of one spelling from among the multiple acceptable
purely phonetic spellings.

Regards, Paul V.

____________________________attached_________________________


--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I would just like to make clear my current position on Shavian.
> 1. I don't own a computer, therefore I don't have any fonts to use.
> 2. I handwrite Shavian and occasionally Quickscript.
> 3. I prefer Shavian out of all alternative writing systems.
> 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
> 5. I use both the dictionary and my personal pronouncation to
determine spelling.
> 6. I agree with you folks on the need for a preferred shavian
spelling (So that there can be Shavian books published.
> 7. And I think you guys are doing a good job locationing a
preferred pronouncation.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears


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tomato, tuhmatuh, tomahto, tommytoe. I use the first, thanks. Though it
is an unstressed syllable, in this case, I still pronounce the long O.

The shwa and shwa+r sounds are the most difficult to understand, i
believe, because they are non sounds. It's like trying to tell someone
where to put a glottal stop. It's an unsound. Like the -le or -er (-re)
at the ends of words such as able, fable, center (centre), meter
(metre), we focus on the sounds that are defined.

I suppose the question is, how do you define an undefined sound?

Along the same vein, as a child in the south, my parents, who had both
overcome accents of their own, proper speech and diction was part of my
upbringing. As such, Tennessee twang pronunciations of hoo, wut, ware,
wen, and wah became more properly who, what, where, when, and why. The
difference is not just in the vowel sound, but in the consonant that we
call /hw/ or the "voiceless w," which (hw-i-ch) seems to be the point
of contention. I included this sound in my semi-Dvorak shavian
keyboard, in the form of a small h figure, in the form of a loop below
the baseline extends into the w form. My form in askii:

/
/ <--The /w/ slash mark above the baseline
/
() <--The /h/ loop

I am still trying to decipher the font creator programs, before I will
create my own typing scheme so that I might be able to show you much
more easily. This so far is the only problem I've had with shavian, and
the only one I feel that Read fixed in quikscript. My version is simply
a more complete form of his "checkmark" that I can only guess was
derived the same way.

Any thoughts?
--Star

=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)

I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.

The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
"If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."

Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.

For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments sake.
And it would show up on her screen with the form she describes.

So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as character
codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.

But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
normal Shaw "Woe" letter.

I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
accents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.

That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear consistent
phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Accent groups.

Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should be
able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.

Comments? Anyone.

Regards, Paul V.

Thanks Ewout, for the idea.

P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of T.O.
It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
It would be a shame that such a valuable communication tool/protocol
would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.


________________attached_________________________________

--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> tomato, tuhmatuh, tomahto, tommytoe. I use the first, thanks.
Though it
> is an unstressed syllable, in this case, I still pronounce the long
O.
>
> The shwa and shwa+r sounds are the most difficult to understand, i
> believe, because they are non sounds. It's like trying to tell
someone
> where to put a glottal stop. It's an unsound. Like the -le or -er (-
re)
> at the ends of words such as able, fable, center (centre), meter
> (metre), we focus on the sounds that are defined.
>
> I suppose the question is, how do you define an undefined sound?
>
> Along the same vein, as a child in the south, my parents, who had
both
> overcome accents of their own, proper speech and diction was part
of my
> upbringing. As such, Tennessee twang pronunciations of hoo, wut,
ware,
> wen, and wah became more properly who, what, where, when, and why.
The
> difference is not just in the vowel sound, but in the consonant
that we
> call /hw/ or the "voiceless w," which (hw-i-ch) seems to be the
point
> of contention. I included this sound in my semi-Dvorak shavian
> keyboard, in the form of a small h figure, in the form of a loop
below
> the baseline extends into the w form. My form in askii:
>
> /
> / <--The /w/ slash mark above the baseline
> /
> () <--The /h/ loop
>
> I am still trying to decipher the font creator programs, before I
will
> create my own typing scheme so that I might be able to show you much
> more easily. This so far is the only problem I've had with shavian,
and
> the only one I feel that Read fixed in quikscript. My version is
simply
> a more complete form of his "checkmark" that I can only guess was
> derived the same way.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --Star
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master
Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/


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