Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Gee, Paul, I'm glad you could decipher that las message of mine. When I
re-read it, *I* was confused. :)

At any rate, I can see why you would want to use it that way, but what
happens when a reader encounters the white-wheat letter that it cannot
be changed into Woe, as in a printed page? That would be like never
encountering a capitol G and not knowing what sound it's supposed to
make.

Also, if we are going to use multiple fonts on the same keyboard
mapping, shouldn't we look for a more logical keyboard mapping, such as
the one I proposed. Mine uses the /hw/ sound and uses the shift key as
sort of a "flip" key, and while not as close to use as a Dvorak-based
shavian keboard (there has been one mapped if I recall correctly, by
one of our number) it is better for changing writing systems that the
Roman-based keyboard.

--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
>
> I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
>
> The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
> font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
>
> Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
> representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
>
> For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
> say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments sake.
>
> And it would show up on her screen with the form she describes.
>
> So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as character
> codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
>
> But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
> font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
> normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
>
> I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
> to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
> accents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
> Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
>
> That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear consistent
>
> phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Accent groups.
>
> Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
> their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should be
> able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
>
> Comments? Anyone.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
>
> P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
> that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of T.O.
> It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
> pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
> It would be a shame that such a valuable communication tool/protocol
> would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
>
>


=====
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I.F.E. internashunal fonetik english

t = to e = the v = of n = and

A E I O U az in Age Eat ... yoU

http://groups.msn.com/konsosiashunforspiritualiti

www.geocities.com/kfs111/konsosiashun.html <http://www.geocities.com/kfs111/konsosiashun.html>

>From: Scott Harrison
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>To: shavian@...
>Subject: Re: [shavian] My Position on Shavian
>Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:13:37 +0100
>
>
>On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:
>
>>4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
>>
> I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that is set up
>in a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts
>that I have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is
>the format that is used for self-publishing. And the other question
>is how much does self-publishing cost?
>
>--
>Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

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Some pretty advanced book printing and binding equipment is available at
the university I study. It is permitted to use the machinery for personal
stuff, since you're paying for it when you use it.

It is possible to produce simple books, although I do not think the price
will be very cheap. At least 5 eurocents per page. (perhaps even per single-sided
page). I might want to create a nice book out of the Quickscript Manual sometime,
just for fun.

I must still figure out how to use the equipment, but it seems pretty straightforward
and there are some people available who can help out.

Perhaps I could use these facilities?

Ewout


>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@...
>From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:02:51 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: [shavian] My Position on Shavian
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>
>
>OpenOffice.Org is a free, open source product from the website of the
same name, and can generate PDF files. as for normal self publishing,
that depends on the publisher. Xlibris for instance is only print by
order publishing company, while others w
>ll print certain numbers for a
fee. I do agree, however, that it would aid in both our reading speeds
and to spread "the gospel of Shaw" to others to have more than one book
that's been so long out of print it's nearly impossible to find.

--Star

>
--- Scott Harrison <scott@...> wrote:
>
> On Monday, Oct 27, 2003, at 19:56 Europe/Paris, carl easton wrote:
>
> > 4. I would love to see books published in Shavian.
> >
> I think I should be able to generate a PDF document that i
> set up
> in
> a manner similar to Androcles and the Lion for any of the texts that
> I
> have translated to Shavian. The question is whether this is the
> format
> that is used for self-publishing. And the other question is how much
>
>
>oes self-publishing cost?
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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It shouldn't be too difficult to create these fonts. In many cases, there
is no need to create a new character. Some simple cut&paste work with a font
editor will do the trick, and will not take too much time.

However, this only works in one direction. I can use a substitute font to
simplify the text, but I can't use a different font to make a text 'more
detailed' (adding extra characters, making more differences etc.)

None the less, I think this will solve some problems.

Ewout
>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@...
>From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:42:34 -0000
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>
>
>Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)

I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.

The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
"If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
font
>and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."

Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent
>ifferences
when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.


[snip]


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I think it is best to leave the keyboard mapping the fonts use untouched.
If we want to type in a different keyboard setup, we can use tools such as
tavultesoft's Keyman:

http://www.tavultesoft.com/

I use that for some simpler Quickscript keyboards. Take a look at this driver:

http://home.tiscali.nl/teraiten/downloads/efficient.zip
It has a manual in the zip file.

Changing them to work for Shavian too wouldn't be too much work, considering
the fonts are quite alike.

And I believe that editing keyboard mappings is easier to do with Keyman
or something than a font editor.

Ewout


>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@...
>From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
>Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:46:35 -0800 (PST)
>Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>
>
>Gee, Paul, I'm glad you could decipher that las message of mine. When I
re-read it, *I* was confused. :)

At any rate, I can see why you would want to use it that way, but what
happens when a reader encounters the white-wheat letter that it cannot

>be changed into Woe, as in a printed page? That would be like never
encountering a capitol G and not knowing what sound it's supposed to
make.

Also, if we are going to use multiple fonts on the same keyboard
mapping, shouldn't we look for a more
>ogical keyboard mapping, such as
the one I proposed. Mine uses the /hw/ sound and uses the shift key as
sort of a "flip" key, and while not as close to use as a Dvorak-based
shavian keboard (there has been one mapped if I recall correctly, by
one o
> our number) it is better for changing writing systems that the
Roman-based keyboard.

--Star

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
>
> I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> Maybe there
>s a way we can all get together on this.
>
> The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
> font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
>
> Perhaps we can
>ave one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw lett
>r
> representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
>
> For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
> say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments sake.
>
> And it would show up on h
>r screen with the form she describes.
>
> So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as character
> codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
>
> But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
>
> font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
> normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
>
> I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
> to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
> a
>cents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
> Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
>
> That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear consistent
>
> phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Acc
>nt groups.
>
> Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
> their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should be
> able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
>
> Comments? Anyone.
>
> Regards, Paul V
>
>
> Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
>
> P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
> that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of T.O.
> It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
>
> pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
> It would be a shame that such a valuable communication tool/protocol
> would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
>
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha
> --Zen Master Hakuin

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On Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003, at 19:42 Europe/Paris, paul vandenbrink wrote:

> Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
>
> I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
>
> The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
> font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
>
> Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
> representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
>
>
Unfortunately this will not work as expected. If all you are going to
do is have a font display a different character based on some mapping
(like all X becomes Y) then you will run across instances when the
character X should not have become Y but should remain X or even become
Z. For a font, you will not be able to define complex rules like X
becomes Y if it follows A, G, or H. Actually, I should amend that. On
a Mac OS X system you can make a rulebook that is that smart. However,
I think it is folly.

I think the best way to handle the different accents is to come up
with T. O. English to Shavian <accent> dictionaries. Then you can use
the T. O. as a common reference and convert if you are so inclined.
However, there are problems because the system has to be smart enough
to handle things like "read" which is written in Shavian in two ways
(like "reed" and "red"). You could also come up with a Shavian
dictionary that allows you to map to other Shavian pronunciations as
well. However, you may still come across the same issues with a word
like "read" in the case one Shavian accent has more than one T.O. work
map to it as one word, but another accent maps them to two words.

Unless the world agrees on one spelling for Shavian words we will
always have the concept of "that is written in Australian" versus
"American." And I know we will not agree on one spelling since I do
not agree with words spelled in Androcles and the Lion since they are
not in my accent. And until I have more books published in my accent
people seem to accept Androcles and the Lion as some sort of gospel.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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ah, byt keyman is for windows. I'm on linux. There aren't any shavian
fonts for linux anyway, so my proposition is that I will endeavour to
decipher a linux font creator program (wish me luck) or something
similar and use my own keyboard mapping. If romanji or whatever you
wish to call it is faster in shavian than my version. Then I'll concede
the point.

I hate computers,
--Star

--- adsl413593@... wrote:
> I think it is best to leave the keyboard mapping the fonts use
> untouched.
> If we want to type in a different keyboard setup, we can use tools
> such as
> tavultesoft's Keyman:
>
> http://www.tavultesoft.com/
>
> I use that for some simpler Quickscript keyboards. Take a look at
> this driver:
>
> http://home.tiscali.nl/teraiten/downloads/efficient.zip
> It has a manual in the zip file.
>
> Changing them to work for Shavian too wouldn't be too much work,
> considering
> the fonts are quite alike.
>
> And I believe that editing keyboard mappings is easier to do with
> Keyman
> or something than a font editor.
>
> Ewout
>
>
> >-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
> >To: shavian@...
> >From: Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
> >Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:46:35 -0800 (PST)
> >Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
> >Reply-To: shavian@...
> >
> >
> >Gee, Paul, I'm glad you could decipher that las message of mine.
> When I
> re-read it, *I* was confused. :)
>
> At any rate, I can see why you would want to use it that way, but
> what
> happens when a reader encounters the white-wheat letter that it
> cannot
>
> >be changed into Woe, as in a printed page? That would be like never
> encountering a capitol G and not knowing what sound it's supposed to
> make.
>
> Also, if we are going to use multiple fonts on the same keyboard
> mapping, shouldn't we look for a more
> >ogical keyboard mapping, such as
> the one I proposed. Mine uses the /hw/ sound and uses the shift key
> as
> sort of a "flip" key, and while not as close to use as a Dvorak-based
> shavian keboard (there has been one mapped if I recall correctly, by
> one o
> > our number) it is better for changing writing systems that the
> Roman-based keyboard.
>
> --Star
>
> --- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> > Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
> >
> > I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> > Maybe there
> >s a way we can all get together on this.
> >
> > The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> > "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change the
>
> > font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
> >
> > Perhaps we can
> >ave one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> > selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> > groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> > when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw lett
> >r
> > representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
> >
> > For example, Star differentiates w and \hw\, so why not have a key,
>
> > say an uppercase "W" to represent the \hw\ sound, for arguments
> sake.
> >
> > And it would show up on h
> >r screen with the form she describes.
> >
> > So she sends me the letter, and the information is sent as
> character
> > codes with a recommended font, which I may or may not have.
> >
> > But when I receive a Shaw Letter from Star, I would use my own Shaw
> >
> > font which would represent an uppercase "W" character code as the
> > normal Shaw "Woe" letter.
> >
> > I guess this is a reductionist solution. But I really think we need
>
> > to agree to recognize that there are different but equally valuable
>
> > a
> >cents of English, and just try and minimize their impact on the
> > Shaw spelling. And then just get beyond it.
> >
> > That's why I like the dictionary solution. There are clear
> consistent
> >
> > phonetic dictionaries for each of the major English Acc
> >nt groups.
> >
> > Most people have an allegiance, if not a complete compliance with
> > their own National or Regional Standard Accent group. They should
> be
> > able to write it, phonetically into Shaw.
> >
> > Comments? Anyone.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V
> >
> >
> > Thanks Ewout, for the idea.
> >
> > P.S. We need to realize that Shavian is a system, a super alphabet
> > that does a lot more than just corrects some of the problems of
> T.O.
> > It builds in, an internal consistency or logic that makes English
> >
> > pronunciation much more accessable to everyone.
> > It would be a shame that such a valuable communication
> tool/protocol
> > would be lost, because of quibbling over pronunciation.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha
> > --Zen Master Hakuin
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
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>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups
> >s subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>


=====
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Hi Star & Ewout & Scott

I am not giving a full blown technical solution to the problem of
how to create the individual fonts needed to represent subsets of
the Shaw Alphabet more appropriate to each major English accent group.

That is not the point. I just want to point out that it is possible
to flip fonts back and forth dynamically on the computer, without too
much work, to read the Shaw Alphabet more easily. Especially, if it
comes from a foriegn accent group.

Obviously, this has nothing to do with the best way to write a piece
of Shavian text that you want to publish.
I hope that all of you are Internet literate enough to accept that
writing Chat or even a post, such as this does not demand the highest
adiration to English spelling. Why expect such an exacting standard
for casual chat.

For technical writing in Shavian, I am sure that tools can be
developed (i.e. Spell-Checkers, Transilteraters)

But the intention is to allow someone to read something from a
different accent group with less confusion. Obviously, it can only
consolidate Shaw letters, not separate one letter into one of two
variants. Without accessing a dictionary, how can you create a
represention of a vowel variation that the writer doesn't hear in the
first place.

But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of unknown
vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle that a
non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the beautiful
Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel deprived.
Present company excepted.

Regards, Paul V.

PS Ewout. Should we maybe consider publishing a Shavian version of
Kingsley's Pamphlet?

____________________attached_________________________________________



--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, Oct 28, 2003, at 19:42 Europe/Paris, paul vandenbrink
wrote:
>
> > Hi Star & Ewout (EvQt)
> >
> > I think I have a practical solution for you, Star.
> > Maybe there is a way we can all get together on this.
> >
> > The Idea comes from Ewout's last message.
> > "If it's a computer file in Shavian, all I have to do is change
the
> > font and I can then read it in Quickscript. This I really like."
> >
> > Perhaps we can have one all encompassing Shaw Alphabet, but with a
> > selection of different fonts, based on each of the main accent
> > groups. Your personal font would iron out those Accent differences
> > when displaying a message from someone who uses a Shaw letter
> > representing a sound that is not used in your own accent group.
> >
> >
> Unfortunately this will not work as expected. If all you are
going to
> do is have a font display a different character based on some
mapping
> (like all X becomes Y) then you will run across instances when the
> character X should not have become Y but should remain X or even
become
> Z. For a font, you will not be able to define complex rules like X
> becomes Y if it follows A, G, or H. Actually, I should amend
that. On
> a Mac OS X system you can make a rulebook that is that smart.
However,
> I think it is folly.
>
> I think the best way to handle the different accents is to
come up
> with T. O. English to Shavian <accent> dictionaries. Then you can
use
> the T. O. as a common reference and convert if you are so
inclined.
> However, there are problems because the system has to be smart
enough
> to handle things like "read" which is written in Shavian in two
ways
> (like "reed" and "red"). You could also come up with a Shavian
> dictionary that allows you to map to other Shavian pronunciations
as
> well. However, you may still come across the same issues with a
word
> like "read" in the case one Shavian accent has more than one T.O.
work
> map to it as one word, but another accent maps them to two words.
>
> Unless the world agrees on one spelling for Shavian words we
will
> always have the concept of "that is written in Australian" versus
> "American." And I know we will not agree on one spelling since I
do
> not agree with words spelled in Androcles and the Lion since they
are
> not in my accent. And until I have more books published in my
accent
> people seem to accept Androcles and the Lion as some sort of gospel.
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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Hi Joseph
I found quite a few more divergent spellings in your list of 1000
English words in Shaw.
hC iz SI TrM dI.

capital kApitl -> kApetal
captain kAptin -> kaptan
carry -> kXI


character -> kXaktD

child -> cFald
children -> cildren


circle sxkl -> sxkul


colony kolanI -> kYlanI

column kolam -> kYlam

common koman -> kYman

compare kampX -> kumpX
complete kamplIt ->kumplIt
condition kandiSan -> kundiSan
connect kanekt -> kunekt
consider kansidD -> kunsidD

contain kantEn -> kuntEn

continue kantinV -> kuntinV
control kantrOl -> kuntrOl

cool kMl -> kMal
copy kopI -> kYpI

cotton kotn -> kotan

cross kros -> krYs


decimal desimal -> desamal

design dizFn -> dIsFn
determine ditxmin -> dItDmAn
develop divelap
dictionary dikSanrI -> dikSunXI

difficult difikalt ->difakYlt

division diviZan -> daviZan

dog dog -> dYg
dollar dolD -> dYlD

double dubl -> dubal

during djUDiN -> dxiN

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. The long term goal for Shavian is to replace T.O. in at least
one newspaper.
P.P.S. A good rule to remember is that the Schwa (Ado) is just half
a vowel, and even though it can start a stand-alone syllable or even
end a syllable, it will never sticks two consonants together
(C+Schwa+C)
to make a closed syllable.
P.P.P.S. Are you going to upgrade your wordlist?

____________________attached________________________________

--- In shavian@..., "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
wrote:
> How can we move forward?
>
> What do people see as the long term goals for Shavian?
>
> How do we achieve those goals?
>
> What obstacles are in the way? and how do we remove those
obstacles?
>
> Have you a wishlist for Shavian in the coming weeks/months/years?
>
> What are you doing right now to get more out of Shavian?
>
> Can we do more?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph


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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I'm more interested in re-writing the Quickscript Manual. I might be able
to use that for school too :)

But I can print it for you (or print stuff for other members). We will have
to figure out how to deal with payments though.

Ewout

>-- Oorspronkelijk bericht --
>To: shavian@...
>From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
>Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:01:02 -0000
>Subject: [shavian] Re: Shwa, Shwa+r, w, hw
>Reply-To: shavian@...
>
>
>Hi Star & Ewout & Scott

[snip]

>PS Ewout. Should we maybe consider publishing a Shavian version of
Kingsley's Pamphlet?


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