Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

hF pYl,

F sI Vx pqnt abQt "W" n "D". F stil fFnd trUbal XrIaz wiT H konsistantsI v SyvIan letxz. but lFk F sed xlIx F stil Vz Yl v H sed letxz. rFt nQ F'm trFiN Vx meTud. n nQ F Am VziN H abrIvIESanz, 'a', 'H', 'v', 'n'. HO pxsanallI F Vz H fUl prOnQnsIESan in mF pxsanal SyvIan rFtiNz.

best rIgRdz,

kRal

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

hF kRal

fIal frI t rFt t mI n H rest v H grMp in SyvWn/SyvIan.
F enJq rIdiN mesaJez in SyvIan Az wel.
it iz Just sO muc fAstx.
enI TQts yn a lxniN subset v SY letxz HAt a baginD nIds t stRt wiT n
mAstD bafP bIkumiN flMant wiT H hOl SyvIan Alfabet.

fP eksAmpal, I rIfrEn frum VziN H SY letxz "W" n rXlI Vz "D", bIkuz
F fFnd HR VsaJ t bI inkunsistant. F dOnt undDstAnd H intxnal lyJik.

rIgRdz, pYl V.

-- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> F'v bin studIing lEngwiJaz fP a loN tFm sO F kAn undxstAnd
evrIbUdIz Aksent grMp.
> And F lUv tM rFt in SyvWn. bIcuz it iz fun tM rFt wiT.
>
> best rIgRdz,
>
> kRal
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Paul and Carl,

I am concerned about the teachability of the
ASCII version of Shavian and have suggested a more
readable email friendly script. Now if some of the developers
of the Read fonts would just use them but perhaps it is too late
to change. That is the problem with all coding standards, no matter
how good the ideas are that come later, they rarely overcome the
mistakes of the original code.

That being said, lets review the pronunciation guide: --Steve

--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"

Can the problems be traced by to Merriam Webster?
I belive the selections of variants are Paul's.

Just as the National Spelling Bee has to based their spelling on a
single authority, we need to pick the authority for the
pronunciation spellings.

My preference is John Wells PG published by Longman's. It gives
both the UK and US variants. I also use Longman's Dictionary of
American English and the guide at www.m-w.com.

> > with - *wiH, wiT the th is voiced in <with> wiD in ENgliS
I would call wiH the variant pronunciation
> > have -- hAv, *hav h{v in SAMPA for NBC-Eng. hqv in ENgliS
*hAv is the variant in the USA
> > for - fD, fP faur or fer? for in ENgliS
You have to decide if you are talking
continuous speech or citation speech.
m-w confuses the matter by having the
audio sample use citation speech /fOr/
and then writing f&r <fer> as preferred.
> > by -- bF, *ba Same problem bY in ENgliS
> > at -- *at, At Varies between dialects: {t in the US
> > under - undD, *andD My choice would be undD undar in ENgliS
the stress is on the first syllable in US
In ENgliS there is no such thing as a
stressed schwa or unstressed /V/<u>
ENgliS has no ligatures as they add an
unnecessary difficulty. Ligatures are
added for printing with a converter.

> > than - Hun, HAn Citation spelling: HAn ENgliS Dqn
I am having a little trouble with A for {
since in SAMPA A: = a: or ah while in
ENgliS A=eI. AEYOU are all shifted

> > such - suc, *sic Agree. *sic is a variant ENgliS suC
> * variant pronunciations

> Paul: You said that you have looked at the NTC's Dictionary of
> American English Pronunciation by Bernard Silverstein.
> It gives just one American pronunciation of each English word.

> If you would use this Dictionary, you would save yourself a lot of
> grief and skip the lesser used or even out of date variant
> pronunciations.


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The Shaw Alphabet Competition by Bob Brown

Reprinted from the Journal of the Simplified Spelling Society,
1991: http://www.spellingsociety.org/pubs/newsletters/n1.html#shaw2

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/texts/shaw-alfa-
compet.html

In 1958 a public competition was held to select a new alphabet for
the English language, funded from the estate of George Bernard Shaw
who had died eight years previously. Over 450 designs were submitted
and a prize of £500 was shared between four entries judged of
outstanding merit. It was decided, wisely, not to try to combine
such disparate designs. One of them, by the British typographer
Kingsley Read, was selected - with minor adjustments - to be the
final outcome. In 1962 Penguin Books published, and distributed free
to many libraries worldwide, a parallel-text edition of Androcles &
the Lion [see illustration] using Read's design, again funded from
the Shaw estate. Some typewriters were made for the new alphabet,
and Read published a duplicated magazine for enthusiasts until he
died in 1975. Since then, little has been heard of this brave
attempt to revolutionise the way we write.

Such are the bare facts of the Shaw Alphabet Competition, as it has
come to be known. You can read more detail in the introductory and
explanatory material in the enclosed copy. Other relatively
accessible public accounts can be found in Haas (1969) and Tauber
(1965). This brief article aims to sketch in a little background not
addressed in those public sources, and is mostly taken from research
material for a book-in-progress.

During most of his long life Shaw showed strong interest in
improving the efficiency of the tool with which he earned his living-
the English language. As early as 1901 he was supporting in the
Press calls for spelling reforms of the type put forward by
his "friend William Archer", who was a leading light in the
Simplified Spelling Society and principal author of the scheme later
entitled New Spelling. A few years later his comments on President
Theodore Roosevelt's American reforms of 1906 were
characteristically lively! His best-known venture, however, which he
called "an advertisement for the science of phonetics", was the play
Pygmalion. He experimented with various ways to represent Eliza
Doolitttle's cockney accent, between the first edition in 1912 and
the latest in 1942. Sometime in this period Shaw came to the radical
view that digraphic schemes like New Spelling, or proposals using
diacritics or extra letters, just would not do. The problem was the
alphabet. Why not scrap it and start afresh with one designed for
the task?

By 1944 he was telling the world that his fortune would, after his
death, be used to promote a completely new alphabet. But it was
characteristic of the man that he had tantalised others with the
prospect of funding before finally deciding on the new-alphabet
bequest. One of the more famous of these was CK Ogden, whose Basic
English received massive exposure during the 1930s as a simplified
form of the language, for teaching and international communication.
Ogden did not envisage changing spelling at all - he contended that,
with only 850 items to worry about, a learner could memorise the
pronunciation and spelling at the same time as the meaning. It is
clear from correspondence between these men that Shaw had as late as
1940 led Ogden to believe his project was favoured. So Ogden was
naturally surprised -actually 'aghast' might be a better
description - to hear early in 1944 that the great man had changed
his mind, in favour of a new alphabet scheme. It is interesting to
speculate what might have changed that mind. [continued]

More in the file section of this group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/texts/shaw-alfa-
compet.html

--Steve [comments and additions welcomed]



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--- In shavian@..., "m. vero" <vrn111@h...> wrote:

spIkiN H sEm lANgwaJ fAsilitEts komjMnikESun. stil, kompErativ
liNgwistiks yr interestiN. wI hAv befOr us H promis v unlimited
progres; Qr opOrtMnitIz yr bQndles. mOst v us in H jM.es. sIm t hAv
H tendensI v "IHer|Or" TiNkiN--if wun TiN iz trM, H oHer must bI
fYls. wI Yfen wunder hQ 2 TiNz, sO diferent from wun AnoHer, kAn bOT
bI trM.

Another possible keyboard version - ENgliS

spEkiN D sAm lqngwaj fasilatAts kamUnikASan. Stil, kampArativ
liNgwistiks cr interestiN. wE hqv bifor us D promis v unlimitad
progres; our oportwnityz cr boundles. mOst v us in D U.es. sEm t
hav D tendansy v "EDar/or" TiNkiN -- if wun TiN iz trw, D oDar must
bE fols. wE ofan wundar how tw TiNz, sO difarant from wun anuDar,
kqn bOT bE trw.

The phonology is not identical, e.g., ar /@r/ instead of er <air>.
cr for aar is no better than yr but some of the other symbol
assignments are more intuitive to the English reader.

--Steve


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Is the American Heritage Dictionary readily available in print in the States?

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: carl easton <mailto:shavintel16@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] More about -> Some words

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the input. Like I mentioned in a response to someone else I'm still confused. But your right we need only one dictionary which is compatible with Shavian. The only reason I was using the Merriam-Webster dictionary is because that Is the only dictionary that I own right now. Besides that I wish everygood luck in finding the best way of standardizing Shavian spelling.

best regards,

Carl

paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:

Hi Carl
I noticed a few problems with your Shaw spellings of common English
words in the attached note. I think it can be traced back to the
pronunciation key used by the merriam-webster dictionary.
> with - *wiH, wiT
> have -- hAv, *hav
> for - fD, fP
> by -- bF, *ba
> at -- *at, At
> under - undD, *andD
> than - Hun, HAn
> such - suc, *sic
* variant pronunciations

You said that you have looked at the NTC's Dictionary of American
English Pronunciation by Bernard Silverstein. It gives just one
American pronunciation of each English word.

If you would use this Dictionary, you would save yourself a lot of
grief and skip the lesser used or even out of date variant
pronunciations.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. One of the reasons that we have abbreviations for the following
words is to reduce variant spellings. We need to use the Standard
Abbreviation instead of your variations. They (Abbr.) are part of
the system of Shaw spelling too.

> to, too - ta, tM ----> t
> a - a, E ----> a
> of - uv, Yv ----> v
> the - Ha, Hi, HI ----> H
> and - an, and, And ----> n

P.P.S. It appears that while everyone agrees that a Dictionary,
should be
our final arbitrator, for determining preferred Shavian spelling
based on the Dictionary pronunciation,
we still need to narrow down, and determine which Dictionaries have
compatible pronunciation keys with the Shaw Alphabet.


P.P.P.S Unfortunately, my favorite, the NTC's Dictionary of American
English Pronunciation by Bernard Silverstein is temporararily out of
print. Copies are available on Amazon.com

Also Mr. Silverstein just came out with

"Perfecting the Sounds of American English", which will answer a lot
of the questions and quibbles of our American English Speakers. I
urge them all to get a copy.
It even includes a complete guide to IPA, so you can kill two birds
with one stone. See the direction American English is heading, and
learn the standard world language spelling system as it applies to
English.


--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> This is the next installment of Basic English words with merriam-
webster dictionary pronouncation.
>
> down - dQn
> from - frum, frYm
> in - in
> off - of
> on - on, Yn
> over - OvD
> through - TrM
> to - ta, tM
> under - undD, andD
> up - up
> with - wiH, wiT
> as - az, Az
> for - fD, fP
> of - uv, Yv
> till - til
> than - Hun, HAn
> a - a, E
> the - Ha
> all - ol
> any -enI
> every - evrI
> little - lital, litl
> much - muc
> no - nO
> other - uHD
> some - sum
> such - suc, sic
>
> As before I hope these words help the cause,
>
> Carl
>
> carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> For the next month I will be sharing Basic English words whose
pronouncation were determined by the merrium-webster dictionary.
>
> come -- kum
> get -- get
> give -- giv
> go -- gO
> keep -- kIp
> let -- let
> make -- mEk
> put -- pUt
> seem -- sIm
> take -- tEk
> be -- bI
> do -- dM
> have -- hAv, hav
> say -- sE
> see -- sI
> send -- send
> may -- mE
> will -- wil
> about -- abQt
> across -- akros
> after -- AftD
> against -- agenst
> among -- amuN
> at -- at, At
> before -- bifP
> between -- bitwIn
> by -- bF, ba
>
> Hope these help the cause,
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
__________________attached ______________________________________


Subject: Re: 3 ways to determine shavian spelling

Hi Carl

I suppose I could use one the Oxford Dictionaries. I have not
checked it's pronunciation
thoroughly, but it probably suffices.
It has a really good, Learners or Student Dictionary.

But I have to disagree with your choice of the Merriam-Webster
Dictionary. It uses an extended Roman Alphabet with
diacritics to indicate pronunciation. It has duplicate letters, is
inadequate and is quite confusing, because it doesn't have a one to
one relationship between pronunciation key letters and English
sounds.
The Webster International Edition looks better.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. It appears as if everyone agrees that a Dictionary, should be
our arbitrator, for determining preferred pronunciation.
Now we need to narrow down, and determine which Dictionaries have
compatible pronunciation keys with the Shaw Alphabet.

____________________attached_________________________________

Hi Everyone

Hmmn.
No Dissenters at this moment. Although it appears, everyone has own
favorite English Dictionary.

Resolved. Let us use a Dictionary, as our final arbitrator, for
determining preferred pronunciation.
Please refer to actual name of Dictionary, whenever possible. (ie.
AH, MW, Web IW,
NTC, Penguin, Gage, Ox, dic.com)

Dissenters please hold your peace.

Regards, Paul V.
>

--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> This is the next installment of Basic English words with merriam-
webster dictionary pronouncation.
>
> down - dQn
> from - frum, frYm
> in - in
> off - of
> on - on, Yn
> over - OvD
> through - TrM
> to - ta, tM
> under - undD, andD
> up - up
> with - wiH, wiT
> as - az, Az
> for - fD, fP
> of - uv, Yv
> till - til
> than - Hun, HAn
> a - a, E
> the - Ha
> all - ol
> any -enI
> every - evrI
> little - lital, litl
> much - muc
> no - nO
> other - uHD
> some - sum
> such - suc, sic
>
> As before I hope these words help the cause,
>
> Carl
>
> carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> For the next month I will be sharing Basic English words whose
pronouncation were determined by the merrium-webster dictionary.
>
> come -- kum
> get -- get
> give -- giv
> go -- gO
> keep -- kIp
> let -- let
> make -- mEk
> put -- pUt
> seem -- sIm
> take -- tEk
> be -- bI
> do -- dM
> have -- hAv, hav
> say -- sE
> see -- sI
> send -- send
> may -- mE
> will -- wil
> about -- abQt
> across -- akros
> after -- AftD
> against -- agenst
> among -- amuN
> at -- at, At
> before -- bifP
> between -- bitwIn
> by -- bF, ba
>
> Hope these help the cause,
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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re: mMviN fOrward...

412 etimoloJi | wOrd elements

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Ab Or Abs iz a prIfiks mIniN awE; from; separESun.

az a rMt Or prIfiks His mIniN duz not aplF.

1. AbrIviEt: v. t SOrten, mEk brIf.

Az in His tekst: Iven H number v mEJor Orderz v liviN bIiNz wud stAger H hjMmAn imAJinESon, let alOn H kQntles subtFps n vEriESonz. it iz, hQever, dezFrabal t prezent somTiN v 2 bEsik klAsifikESonz v liviN bIiNz--a sugJescon v H /paradFs klAsifikESon n An AbrIviESon v H /jMversa personAliti reJister.

2. AberESon: n. Akt v wonderiN awE; unsQndnes v mFnd. wI ar not blFnd t H fAkt HAt reliJon Yfen Akts unwFzli, Iven iareliJusli, but it Akts. AberESonz v reliJus konvikSon hAv led t bludi persekjMSonz, but YlwEz n ever reliJon duz somTiN; it iz dFnAmik !

3. AbhOr: v. t turn awE from; lOH; Suder At. ...H grEt difikulti v fFndiN a njM n sAtisfFiN simbolizm iz bekYz modern men, az a grMp, AdhIr t H sFentifik AtitMd, escM sMperstiSon, n AbhOr ignOrans, wFl Az individjMalz HE Yl krEv misteri n venerEt H unOn.

4. AbJur: v. t swEr awE; renQns.

5. AblMSon: n. H Akt v wYSiN awA; Yfen in a rFt. H ded ar burId on H 3rd dE, n H gOst iz plEkEted bF 3 AblMSonz v wYter.

6. AbnegEt: v. t reliNkwiS; giv up fOrever. HO H /helenFzd JMiS belIfs wer veri lital inflMensd bF H tIciNz v H /epikjUrians, HE wer veri mAtiariali afekted bF H filosofi v /plEtO n H self-AbnegASon doktrinz v H /stOiks.

7. Abzolv: v. t frI from blEm; ekzonerAt

ekspiariens iz inseparabal from a liviN ekzistens, it iz wun TiN wic nO amQnt v divFn endQment kAn Abzolv jM from H nesesiti v sekjUriN bF AktjMal liviN.

8. AbsterJent: n. a klenzer; somHiN t remMv dirt. AnAlisis: Abs - prIfiks = awE

terJ - l. rMt = wFp

ent - sufiks = HAt wic; wun hM.

9. AbstrAkt: v. drQ awE; separEt from konsosiESon.

/gEnid emplqd mOr HAn 3 skOr lurned trAnslEtOrz in H mEkiN v His AbstrAkt v H reliJus doktrinz v H warld...

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""evf 412Ab.wrF





I.F.E. internashunal fonetik english

t = to e = the v = of n = and

A E I O U az in Age Eat ... yoU

http://groups.msn.com/konsosiashunforspiritualiti

www.geocities.com/kfs111/konsosiashun.html <http://www.geocities.com/kfs111/konsosiashun.html>


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re: mMviN fOrward...

412 etimoloJi | wOrd elements

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Ab Or Abs iz a prIfiks mIniN awE; from; separESun.

az a rMt Or prIfiks His mIniN duz not aplF.

1. AbrIviEt: v. t SOrten, mEk brIf.

Az in His tekst: Iven H number v mEJor Orderz v liviN bIiNz wud stAger H hjMmAn imAJinESon, let alOn H kQntles subtFps n vEriESonz. it iz, hQever, dezFrabal t prezent somTiN v 2 bEsik klAsifikESonz v liviN bIiNz--a sugJescon v H /paradFs klAsifikESon n An AbrIviESon v H /jMversa personAliti reJister.

2. AberESon: n. Akt v wonderiN awE; unsQndnes v mFnd. wI ar not blFnd t H fAkt HAt reliJon Yfen Akts unwFzli, Iven iareliJusli, but it Akts. AberESonz v reliJus konvikSon hAv led t bludi persekjMSonz, but YlwEz n ever reliJon duz somTiN; it iz dFnAmik !

3. AbhOr: v. t turn awE from; lOH; Suder At. ...H grEt difikulti v fFndiN a njM n sAtisfFiN simbolizm iz bekYz modern men, az a grMp, AdhIr t H sFentifik AtitMd, escM sMperstiSon, n AbhOr ignOrans, wFl Az individjMalz HE Yl krEv misteri n venerEt H unOn.

4. AbJur: v. t swEr awE; renQns.

5. AblMSon: n. H Akt v wYSiN awA; Yfen in a rFt. H ded ar burId on H 3rd dE, n H gOst iz plEkEted bF 3 AblMSonz v wYter.

6. AbnegEt: v. t reliNkwiS; giv up fOrever. HO H /helenFzd JMiS belIfs wer veri lital inflMensd bF H tIciNz v H /epikjUrians, HE wer veri mAtiariali afekted bF H filosofi v /plEtO n H self-AbnegASon doktrinz v H /stOiks.

7. Abzolv: v. t frI from blEm; ekzonerAt

ekspiariens iz inseparabal from a liviN ekzistens, it iz wun TiN wic nO amQnt v divFn endQment kAn Abzolv jM from H nesesiti v sekjUriN bF AktjMal liviN.

8. AbsterJent: n. a klenzer; somHiN t remMv dirt. AnAlisis: Abs - prIfiks = awE

terJ - l. rMt = wFp

ent - sufiks = HAt wic; wun hM.

9. AbstrAkt: v. drQ awE; separEt from konsosiESon.

/gEnid emplqd mOr HAn 3 skOr lurned trAnslEtOrz in H mEkiN v His AbstrAkt v H reliJus doktrinz v H warld...

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""evf 412Ab.wrF





I.F.E. internashunal fonetik english

t = to e = the v = of n = and

A E I O U az in Age Eat ... yoU

http://groups.msn.com/konsosiashunforspiritualiti

www.geocities.com/kfs111/konsosiashun.html <http://www.geocities.com/kfs111/konsosiashun.html>


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TaNks kRal
F hOP wI kAn kum t a mItiN v mFnds on HIz QtstAndiN isMz.
AlHO, F pxsanallI Vz Yl HOz abrIvIESunz in mF regVlR SyvIan rFtiNz,
F TiNk VziN "&" fP "and" mFt bI betx fP pxsanal Vs.

rIgRdz, pYl vI.

______________________________attached____________________________




--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> hF pYl,
>
> F sI Vx pqnt abQt "W" n "D". F stil fFnd trUbal XrIaz wiT H
konsistantsI v SyvIan letxz. but lFk F sed xlIx F stil Vz Yl v H
sed letxz. rFt nQ F'm trFiN Vx meTud. n nQ F Am VziN H
abrIvIESanz, 'a', 'H', 'v', 'n'. >
> best rIgRdz,
>
> kRal
>
> paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> hF kRal
>
> fIal frI t rFt t mI n H rest v H grMp in SyvWn/SyvIan.
> F enJq rIdiN mesaJez in SyvIan Az wel.
> it iz Just sO muc fAstx.
> enI TQts yn a lxniN subset v SY letxz HAt a baginD nIds t stRt wiT
n
> mAstD bafP bIkumiN flMant wiT H hOl SyvIan Alfabet.
>
> fP eksAmpal, I rIfrEn frum VziN H SY letxz "W" n rXlI Vz "D", bIkuz
> F fFnd HR VsaJ t bI inkunsistant. F dOnt undDstAnd H intxnal lyJik.
>
> rIgRdz, pYl V.
>
> -- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...>
wrote:
> > F'v bin studIing lEngwiJaz fP a loN tFm sO F kAn undxstAnd
> evrIbUdIz Aksent grMp.
> > And F lUv tM rFt in SyvWn. bIcuz it iz fun tM rFt wiT.
> >
> > best rIgRdz,
> >
> > kRal
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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>
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Hi Steve
You seem to have misunderstood my use of the *.
I put a * asterisk besides the words with variant pronunciations.
The invalid or unlikely pronunciations. * generally means erroneous
example in Linguistic texts.
You to think I preferrred the choices with an asterisk.
That is wrong.

Regards, Paul V.

__________________________attached___________________________

--- In shavian@..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> Paul and Carl,
>
> I am concerned about the teachability of the
> ASCII version of Shavian and have suggested a more
> readable email friendly script. Now if some of the developers
> of the Read fonts would just use them but perhaps it is too late
> to change. That is the problem with all coding standards, no
matter
> how good the ideas are that come later, they rarely overcome the
> mistakes of the original code.
>
> That being said, lets review the pronunciation guide: --Steve
>
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
>
> Can the problems be traced by to Merriam Webster?
> I belive the selections of variants are Paul's.
>
> Just as the National Spelling Bee has to based their spelling on a
> single authority, we need to pick the authority for the
> pronunciation spellings.
>
> My preference is John Wells PG published by Longman's. It gives
> both the UK and US variants. I also use Longman's Dictionary of
> American English and the guide at www.m-w.com.
>
> > > with - *wiH, wiT the th is voiced in <with> wiD in ENgliS
> I would call wiH the variant
pronunciation
> > > have -- hAv, *hav h{v in SAMPA for NBC-Eng. hqv in ENgliS
> *hAv is the variant in the USA
> > > for - fD, fP faur or fer? for in ENgliS
> You have to decide if you are talking
> continuous speech or citation speech.
> m-w confuses the matter by having the
> audio sample use citation speech /fOr/
> and then writing f&r <fer> as
preferred.
> > > by -- bF, *ba Same problem bY in ENgliS
> > > at -- *at, At Varies between dialects: {t in the US
> > > under - undD, *andD My choice would be undD undar in
ENgliS
> the stress is on the first syllable in
US
> In ENgliS there is no such thing as a
> stressed schwa or unstressed /V/<u>
> ENgliS has no ligatures as they add an
> unnecessary difficulty. Ligatures are
> added for printing with a converter.
>
> > > than - Hun, HAn Citation spelling: HAn ENgliS Dqn
> I am having a little trouble with A for
{
> since in SAMPA A: = a: or ah while in
> ENgliS A=eI. AEYOU are all shifted
>
> > > such - suc, *sic Agree. *sic is a variant ENgliS suC
> > * variant pronunciations
>
> > Paul: You said that you have looked at the NTC's Dictionary of
> > American English Pronunciation by Bernard Silverstein.
> > It gives just one American pronunciation of each English word.
>
> > If you would use this Dictionary, you would save yourself a lot
of
> > grief and skip the lesser used or even out of date variant
> > pronunciations.


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Excuse me Steve, when I re-read your post you did realize which form
I considered to be variant, but you do seem to be making some kind
of point, which I don't get. So please elucidate.
Regards, Paul V.

-- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> Hi Steve
> You seem to have misunderstood my use of the *.
> I put a * asterisk besides the words with variant pronunciations.
> The invalid or unlikely pronunciations. * generally means
erroneous
> example in Linguistic texts.
> You seem to think I preferrred the choices with an asterisk.
> That is wrong.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> __________________________attached___________________________
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Steve Bett" <stbett@y...> wrote:
> > Paul and Carl,
> >
> > I am concerned about the teachability of the
> > ASCII version of Shavian and have suggested a more
> > readable email friendly script. Now if some of the developers
> > of the Read fonts would just use them but perhaps it is too late
> > to change. That is the problem with all coding standards, no
> matter
> > how good the ideas are that come later, they rarely overcome the
> > mistakes of the original code.
> >
> > That being said, lets review the pronunciation guide: --Steve
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> >
> > Can the problems be traced by to Merriam Webster?
> > I belive the selections of variants are Paul's.
> >
> > Just as the National Spelling Bee has to based their spelling on
a
> > single authority, we need to pick the authority for the
> > pronunciation spellings.
> >
> > My preference is John Wells PG published by Longman's. It gives
> > both the UK and US variants. I also use Longman's Dictionary of
> > American English and the guide at www.m-w.com.
> >
> > > > with - *wiH, wiT the th is voiced in <with> wiD in
ENgliS
> > I would call wiH the variant
> pronunciation
> > > > have -- hAv, *hav h{v in SAMPA for NBC-Eng. hqv in
ENgliS
> > *hAv is the variant in the USA
> > > > for - fD, fP faur or fer? for in
ENgliS
> > You have to decide if you are talking
> > continuous speech or citation speech.
> > m-w confuses the matter by having the
> > audio sample use citation speech /fOr/
> > and then writing f&r <fer> as
> preferred.
> > > > by -- bF, *ba Same problem bY in
ENgliS
> > > > at -- *at, At Varies between dialects: {t in the
US
> > > > under - undD, *andD My choice would be undD undar in
> ENgliS
> > the stress is on the first syllable
in
> US
> > In ENgliS there is no such thing as a
> > stressed schwa or unstressed /V/<u>
> > ENgliS has no ligatures as they add an
> > unnecessary difficulty. Ligatures
are
> > added for printing with a converter.
> >
> > > > than - Hun, HAn Citation spelling: HAn ENgliS Dqn
> > I am having a little trouble with A
for
> {
> > since in SAMPA A: = a: or ah while in
> > ENgliS A=eI. AEYOU are all shifted
> >
> > > > such - suc, *sic Agree. *sic is a variant ENgliS suC
> > > * variant pronunciations
> >
> > > Paul: You said that you have looked at the NTC's Dictionary of
> > > American English Pronunciation by Bernard Silverstein.
> > > It gives just one American pronunciation of each English word.
> >
> > > If you would use this Dictionary, you would save yourself a
lot
> of
> > > grief and skip the lesser used or even out of date variant
> > > pronunciations.


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