Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them on
> board for certain. Thanks.
>
> How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now? This
> way there would always be something new, and the makers of the webite
> would have no need to think up content. It would be the first rung on
> the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?

I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never happened,
although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It was going
to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think about
it...

The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new site - but
they haven't really taken off.

> I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel (with
> short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two stressed
> syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to hold
> good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a word
> like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.

BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in Shavian.

> I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings on
> the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or type
> in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.

If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard Layout Editor
from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout using
Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font to do
this).

> The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about what
> I'm doing, so that is good news.)
>
> Thanks
> Joseph

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them on
> board for certain. Thanks.
>
> How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now? This
> way there would always be something new, and the makers of the webite
> would have no need to think up content. It would be the first rung on
> the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?

I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never happened,
although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It was going
to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think about
it...

The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new site - but
they haven't really taken off.

> I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel (with
> short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two stressed
> syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to hold
> good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a word
> like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.

BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in Shavian.

> I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings on
> the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or type
> in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.

If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard Layout Editor
from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout using
Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font to do
this).

> The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about what
> I'm doing, so that is good news.)
>
> Thanks
> Joseph

Hugh B


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>


> 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
>
> >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of unknown
> >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle that a
> >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the beautiful
> >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel deprived.
> >Present company excepted.
> >
> >Regards, Paul V.
>
> My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my accent
(northern
> midwest US) are basically these:
>
> yEIOMxAeiUu

I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US dialect. Do
you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect" (as in
without blemish) differently?

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>


> 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
>
> >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of unknown
> >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle that a
> >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the beautiful
> >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel deprived.
> >Present company excepted.
> >
> >Regards, Paul V.
>
> My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my accent
(northern
> midwest US) are basically these:
>
> yEIOMxAeiUu

I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US dialect. Do
you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect" (as in
without blemish) differently?

Hugh B


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Hi Hugh

Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.

Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
think?

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> To: <shavian@...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
>
>
> > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
on
> > board for certain. Thanks.
> >
> > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
This
> > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
webite
> > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
rung on
> > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
>
> I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
happened,
> although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
was going
> to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
about
> it...
>
> The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
site - but
> they haven't really taken off.
>
> > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
(with
> > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
stressed
> > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
hold
> > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
>
> BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
Shavian.
>
> > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
on
> > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
type
> > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
>
> If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
Layout Editor
> from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout
using
> Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
to do
> this).
>
> > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
what
> > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
>
> Hugh B


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Perhaps I've missed you saying it, if you did - where are you from and what
accent would you say you have?

Hugh B


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> Hi Hugh
>
> Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
> Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> think?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > To: <shavian@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> >
> >
> > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
> on
> > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > >
> > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
> This
> > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> webite
> > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> rung on
> > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> >
> > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> happened,
> > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
> was going
> > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
> about
> > it...
> >
> > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> site - but
> > they haven't really taken off.
> >
> > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> (with
> > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> stressed
> > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> hold
> > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
> word
> > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> >
> > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> Shavian.
> >
> > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
> on
> > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
> type
> > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> >
> > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> Layout Editor
> > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout
> using
> > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
> to do
> > this).
> >
> > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> what
> > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Hugh B
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Perhaps I've missed you saying it, if you did - where are you from and what
accent would you say you have?

Hugh B


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> Hi Hugh
>
> Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
> Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> think?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > To: <shavian@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> >
> >
> > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
> on
> > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > >
> > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
> This
> > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> webite
> > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> rung on
> > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> >
> > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> happened,
> > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
> was going
> > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
> about
> > it...
> >
> > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> site - but
> > they haven't really taken off.
> >
> > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> (with
> > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> stressed
> > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> hold
> > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
> word
> > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> >
> > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> Shavian.
> >
> > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
> on
> > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
> type
> > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> >
> > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> Layout Editor
> > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout
> using
> > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
> to do
> > this).
> >
> > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short article
> > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also have
> > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> what
> > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Hugh B
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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Hi Hugh

There is a difference in my pronunciation of the 2 forms of perfect,
but I don't notice it a stressed versus unstressed.
Instead the difference seems to be more just where the syllable
boundary is.
Specifically
Perfect
the verb (refine) would be spelled in Shaw , px-fekt or pD-fekt
and Perfect
the noun (unmarred) would be spelled, pxf-akt or pxf-ikt

As I have been saying all along, my Canadian accent group just
doesn't distinguish between the stressed er (Err/Urge) and
unstressed er (Array) sound. They all sound stressed to me.

Hope that doesn't stress you out, Hugh.

Fond regards, Paul V.

P.S. Confirmation anyone.



--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
>
>
> > 10/29/03 11:01:02 AM, "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > >But I want you all to know, that dealing with vocalization of
unknown
> > >vowel sounds and consonants (i.e. wh) is the biggest hurdle
that a
> > >non RP Shavian novice has to overcome just to learn to read. By
> > >eliminating this problem in one fell swoop, we open up the
beautiful
> > >Shaw Alphabet, for use by the whole world English community. In
> > >particular, the vast majority of Americans, who are vowel
deprived.
> > >Present company excepted.
> > >
> > >Regards, Paul V.
> >
> > My vowels, that is, the ones which I would call phonemic to my
accent
> (northern
> > midwest US) are basically these:
> >
> > yEIOMxAeiUu
>
> I'm sure there is a stress difference in the northern midwest US
dialect. Do
> you not say "perfect" (as in to perfect something) and "perfect"
(as in
> without blemish) differently?
>
> Hugh B


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Hi Joseph
I do notice that when I pronounce the last syllable of murmur, it
seems slightly longer and more distinct than the first. But the
distinction is infitesmal. I would only notice it in the context of
the two variant sound being pronounced together.
I don't hear any difference at all in the word Murmuring.
Regards, Paul V.


--- In shavian@..., "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
wrote:
> Hi Hugh
>
> Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
> Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> think?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > To: <shavian@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> >
> >
> > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take
them
> on
> > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > >
> > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for
now?
> This
> > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> webite
> > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> rung on
> > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> >
> > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> happened,
> > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind.
It
> was going
> > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to
think
> about
> > it...
> >
> > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> site - but
> > they haven't really taken off.
> >
> > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> (with
> > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> stressed
> > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> hold
> > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think
a
> word
> > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> >
> > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> Shavian.
> >
> > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your
spellings
> on
> > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit
or
> type
> > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> >
> > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> Layout Editor
> > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred
layout
> using
> > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial"
font
> to do
> > this).
> >
> > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
article
> > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
have
> > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> what
> > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Hugh B


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Hi Joseph & Hugh
We seem to be going through some pronunciation evolution on this
half of the world, that marginalizes some of these unstressed vowels,
(schwa, schwi, schwer)
When I was young, "interesting" was pronounced "intx-estiN"
went through a stage in 70's where it was usually "inta-restiN"
and is now usually pronounced ----------------> "int-restiN"
This word seems to have an unnatural rhythm, by your comment below.

Regards, Paul V.


> I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel (with
> short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two stressed
> syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to hold
> good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> To: <shavian@...>
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
>
>
> > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
on
> > board for certain. Thanks.
> >
> > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
This
> > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
webite
> > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
rung on
> > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
>
> I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
happened,
> although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
was going
> to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
about
> it...
>
> The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
site - but
> they haven't really taken off.
>
> > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
(with
> > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
stressed
> > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
hold
> > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
word
> > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
>
> BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
Shavian.
>
> > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your
spellings on
> > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
type
> > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
>
> If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
Layout Editor
> from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred
layout using
> Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
to do
> this).
>
> > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
article
> > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
have
> > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
what
> > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
>
> Hugh B


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