Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...


> 10/31/03 1:45:50 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...> wrote:
>
> >Hi Hugh
> >
> >Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> >this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> >and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
> >
> >Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> >repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> >contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> >think?
> >
> >Thanks
> >Joseph
>
> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being the
stress
> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.
>
> Ethan
> The chicken came first.

But this is the point I've tried to make many times. There is no PHONETIC
difference. The difference is to all intents and purposes ONLY stress. So
even for you, the word is "mxmD", NOT "mxmx".

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Driscoll" <phild@...>


> I made the "Shaw Sans No. 2 with Arial" font. If there is a demand,
> I would be happy to make Unicode versions of my other Shaw
> fonts.
>
> --Phillip Driscoll

...And I haven't seen *you* in bloody years!!! :-P My Outlook Express tells
me sometime in 2001! Where in heaven's name have you been? Don't tell me
you've been lurking!

I had been telling everybody you had vanished and that your site was gone
for good. There's no chance of you putting it back up again somewhere is
there?

And yes, please, Unicode versions of all your fonts would be very much
appreciated.

Hugh B (Yes I'm still around)


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Driscoll" <phild@...>


> I made the "Shaw Sans No. 2 with Arial" font. If there is a demand,
> I would be happy to make Unicode versions of my other Shaw
> fonts.
>
> --Phillip Driscoll

...And I haven't seen *you* in bloody years!!! :-P My Outlook Express tells
me sometime in 2001! Where in heaven's name have you been? Don't tell me
you've been lurking!

I had been telling everybody you had vanished and that your site was gone
for good. There's no chance of you putting it back up again somewhere is
there?

And yes, please, Unicode versions of all your fonts would be very much
appreciated.

Hugh B (Yes I'm still around)

While this keyboard layout seems to be the most popular because of it's
close connection with Roman, I have been working on a new keyboard
layout which is not related to this, but based partially on Dvorak and
partially on using the Shift key as a "flip" key, if you understand my
meaning.

--Star

> Talls:
> p - peep
> t - tot
> k - kick
> f - fee
> T - thigh
> s - so
> S - sure
> c - church
> j - yea
> N - hung
>
> Deeps:
> b - bib
> d - dead
> g - gag
> v - vow
> H - they
> z - zoo
> Z - measure
> J - judge
> w - woe
> h - ha-ha
>
> Shorts (1):
> l - loll
> m - mime
> i - if
> e - egg
> A - ash
> a - ado
> o - on
> U - wool
> Q - out
> y - ah
>
> Shorts (2):
> r - roar
> n - nun
> I - eat
> E - age
> F - ice
> u - up
> O - oak
> M - ooze
> q - oil
> Y - awe
>
> Compounds:
> R - are
> P - or
> X - air
> x - err
> D - array
> C - ear
> W - Ian
> V - yew
>
> This seems to me to be the de-facto standard assignment in the fonts
> I
> have.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
>
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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Joseph, that seems to be the six million dollar question. I also have
no problem with unstressed versus stressed sylables as the ones you
described, but it's harder to explain sometimes why there are "two /u/
sounds" to some people, who often don't consider stress.

--Star

--- Joseph Smith <stetsdigs@...> wrote:
> Hi Hugh
>
> Perhaps americans have a different stress system? I can't believe
> this to be true, but i'm baffled as to why 'up' and 'ado' or 'err'
> and 'array' are ever confused. To me they sound wholly different.
>
> Perhaps the best example I can think of is 'murmur' which is not a
> repetitive syllable, but two distinct vowels sounds,
> contrasting 'err' and 'array'. What do speakers with other accents
> think?
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
> > To: <shavian@...>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:56 PM
> > Subject: [shavian] Re: Moving Forward...
> >
> >
> > > Wow! It seems that you've found a whole load, but I'll take them
> on
> > > board for certain. Thanks.
> > >
> > > How about an online news site instead of a newspaper, for now?
> This
> > > way there would always be something new, and the makers of the
> webite
> > > would have no need to think up content. It would be the first
> rung on
> > > the ladder to a daily paper. What do you think?
> >
> > I had this idea. It was over four years ago. Obviously it never
> happened,
> > although the desire to create such a site is still in my mind. It
> was going
> > to be on www.shavian.org. I haven't had the time recently to think
> about
> > it...
> >
> > The shavian forums were going to be an integral part of the new
> site - but
> > they haven't really taken off.
> >
> > > I was under the impression that schwa was an unstressed vowel
> (with
> > > short i) and that English had a natural rhythm so that two
> stressed
> > > syllables did not stand next to on another. This rule seems to
> hold
> > > good (except foreign words and compounds). This is why I think a
> word
> > > like 'arrange' has 'a' at the beginning and not 'x' or 'X'.
> >
> > BANG ON. This explains PERFECTLY the schwa and schwer vowels in
> Shavian.
> >
> > > I do intend to update the wordlist (I am inputting your spellings
>
> on
> > > the list on my computer) and intend to put it on the net.
> > > Unfortunately I can't get unicode working well enough to edit or
> type
> > > in it, so I guess it'll have to be font-based.
> >
> > If you have Windows XP, you can download Microsoft's Keyboard
> Layout Editor
> > from their website. It allows you to make your own preferred layout
>
> using
> > Unicode characters (you need the "Shaw Sans no.2 with Arial" font
> to do
> > this).
> >
> > > The structure of my site is made, and I am writing a short
> article
> > > about the new architecture and sculpture in Manchester. (Also
> have
> > > someone new interested in Shavian by way of telling them about
> what
> > > I'm doing, so that is good news.)
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Joseph
> >
> > Hugh B
>
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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Ethan,

I must protest! Murmur to me would be mime-err-mime-array. The stress
is on the first syllable. If you have a question as to stress, as a
high school teacher told me once, put one hand under your chin and say
the word. Your jaw will drop further down on the stressed syllable.

--Star

> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being
> the stress
> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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11/01/03 11:08:52 AM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

>Ethan,
>
>I must protest! Murmur to me would be mime-err-mime-array. The stress
>is on the first syllable. If you have a question as to stress, as a
>high school teacher told me once, put one hand under your chin and say
>the word. Your jaw will drop further down on the stressed syllable.
>
>--Star
>
>> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference being
>> the stress
>> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound, exactly.

Notice I said that the only difference between the two sounds was the stress?
I'm emphasizing the fact that there is no other difference. I am fully aware of
the stress differences, and you can clearly hear them in the example I posted in
my previous message yesterday. Now if I consider Up/Ado, Err/Array to be
stressed/unstressed pairs, then I have no trouble spelling them that way. But
it seems that many other people of different accents pronounce them as different
sounds altogether, and that just isn't so for my accent.

Ethan
The chicken came first.



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> Well, I do have a microphone, and hopefully the attached file will
> clarify at
> least my pronunciation.

Yup, stressed on the first syllable. :)
--Star

=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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There is something like "Hello Doctor. Today. Tomorrow. Yesterday.
Continue." or something of that sort that contains most of the normal
pronunciation. They use it on computers. Perhaps those with
microphones--I'm sure I have one somewhere--could find out the exact
phraze and record that?

--Star

=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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But the point IS that there is a stress difference. I think the dead
horse we keep on beating here is that a stress difference is a phonemic
difference. Hugh, your thoughts?

--Star

--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> 11/01/03 11:08:52 AM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...>
> wrote:
>
> >Ethan,
> >
> >I must protest! Murmur to me would be mime-err-mime-array. The
> stress
> >is on the first syllable. If you have a question as to stress, as a
> >high school teacher told me once, put one hand under your chin and
> say
> >the word. Your jaw will drop further down on the stressed syllable.
> >
> >--Star
> >
> >> For me, murmur is pronounced "mxmx", with the only difference
> being
> >> the stress
> >> on the first syllable. The two "Errs" are the same sound,
> exactly.
>
> Notice I said that the only difference between the two sounds was the
> stress?
> I'm emphasizing the fact that there is no other difference. I am
> fully aware of
> the stress differences, and you can clearly hear them in the example
> I posted in
> my previous message yesterday. Now if I consider Up/Ado, Err/Array
> to be
> stressed/unstressed pairs, then I have no trouble spelling them that
> way. But
> it seems that many other people of different accents pronounce them
> as different
> sounds altogether, and that just isn't so for my accent.
>
> Ethan
> The chicken came first.
>
>
>


=====
From the very beginning, all beings are Buddha. --Zen Master Hakuin

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