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12/19/03 3:13:44 PM, "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@...> wrote:

>
>> I have written a fictional short story I could transliterate. I
>has only been
>> published in a Yahoo group (crows), and so it has little exposure.
>Should I
>> post it?
>>
>
>
>If you can find a place to put it up on the internet, then yes. Try
>to code for as many available shavian fonts as possible (is there a
>font-family shavian anywhere?), or even better convert it to unicode.
>
>Be sure to tell us where it is.
>
>Joseph

How about if I do both? I can list every Shavian font I know of in my style
sheet, and that way if anyone has a Shavian font of any kind, and a version 5 or
newer browser, it should work. Also I can do a parallel version in Unicode,
which I can use on my Linux system (but not Windows 98!) I've heard there was a
patch for older Windows OS, to make Unicode surrogates work. I'll have to check
it out.

Ethan






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I have heard of niggling doubts before, but i doubt if a niggle is
anything much more than a flucuating spot of indecision that nudges
us long after we had the thought that the matter in question had
been laid to rest. A lesser form of a nagging doubt, which also
creates a niggling uneasyness and sense of uncertainty.

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> To: <shavian@...>
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 2:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Standardizaton - Waiting in the wings ?
>
>
> >
> > > Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think
so. But
> > > it's
> > > still a niggle at the back of my mind.
> >
> > What's a niggle? Sorry, had to ask.
>
>
> It sounds like a small rodent-like creature doesn't it...
>
> Hugh B




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Hi Ethan

I looked at the site you recommended for Quickscript, and it appears
that Kingsley Read, did not provide a specific Quickscript character
for the NG sound. Are you refering to the symbol for Noon? (aNd)
That symbol looks more like a central character, rather than a Tall
letter as you suggest. Perhaps I should be looking at a different
site?
Does Junior Quickscript have a NG letter?

Regards, Paul V.
__________________________________attached__________________


--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> 12/19/03 2:58:39 AM, "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
>
> >The point I am trying to make is that the original form of the
Shaw
> >alphabet would have had /h/ among the voiceless consonants
> >[p, t, k, f, th(in), s, sh(op), ch(op)] where it belongs, look at
> >your Shaw Alphabet Reading Key, where these letters uniformly
> >rise above the vowels, and /ng/, whether or not it should be
> >paired with the aspirate, together with the voiced consonants
> >(or other nasals), where it belongs, and that somehow, someway,
> >the keywords hung and ha-ha were transposed in the (as I
> >understand, rushed) preparation for publication of Androcles.
This
> >was a simple typographical error and as such is easily corrected;
> >it is not a major alteration, it would only be a return to the
> >"original" original form.
>
> I wouldn't be too quick to assume that it was a typo in the
preparation of
> Androcles. If you look at QuickScript (which you can see online at
> http://www.omniglot.com/writing/quikscript.htm) you will see that,
while the
> "h" letter has been moved to above the line, the "ng" letter has
remained
> unchanged as a tall letter. I would assume that to be pretty good
evidence that
> Read thought having the Hung as it is was proper. Though for the
life of me I
> can't figure out why he would have done it that way!
>
> Ethan




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Hi Star
Thanks for getting the list going.
I added a few. I am sure I and the other postman can come up with
more.
We need to define the extent of the problem before attempting to
address the all the issues.

1. awe, ah, on. Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans
2. up, ado Soft U and Schwa sound
3. array, err(urge) Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans
and more confusion between vowel+r diagraphs (air, err, er)
4. haha, hung
5. w, hw
6. t, d, glottal stop
7. syllabic consonants (el, le, om, an, es, ez)
8. abbreviations (short forms): the of and to too two you
9. Ian letter redundant ==> Eat + Ado
10. Yew letter redundant ==> Yea + Ooze
11. Missing letter for EU sound ==> Euchre, Beautiful, few, new, cute
Dipthong
12. unstressed soft i (If) at end of British pronounced words (silly)
13. Other American Standard vs British Standard differences

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Question? Is Ian useful to represent some Non-Rhotic R sound
substitute?

___________________________attached_______________________

--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> Joseph, I wholly agree that we have beaten several dead horses. My
> suggestion is that we (that is those of us with the time and
effort to
> do so) each take a topic. I can think of a few.
>
> awe, ah, on
> up, ado
> haha, hung
> w, hw
> t, d, glottal stop
> syllabic consonants
> short forms: the of and
> American vs British
>
> I'm sure there are others.
>
> --Star
>
> --- j_brg <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> > Well wouldn't it be easy to knock together a FAQ for this group?
It
> > would be a welcome start to any further writings about shavian,
and
> > it would allow newcomers to find all the answers they need
without
> > having to ask.
> >
> > Also, it would help us to stop covering old ground. We are still
> > talking about things that were talked to death years ago. If we
come
> > to a definitive answer, it should be recorded as such, and any
> > further queries can be directed straight to it.
> >
> > It would also decrease any dependence on Androcles.
> >
> > Perhaps a trawl through the past posts would be beneficial to
get it
> > up and running.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
> >
> > --- In shavian@..., Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > One up! I'm working on a novel that has some shavian already
> > > implemented. I've also thought about doing a transliteration,
as
> > with
> > > androlocles.
> > >
> > > A compromise is, as almost always, the best solution. I find it
> > > necessary to add, though, that while you can conceivably learn
to
> > read
> > > and write in shavian in a few hours, it is rather difficult to
find
> >
> > a
> > > method. That is why I think it would be best for us to a hand
book,
> >
> > not
> > > only to answer questions (we could easily write a paragraph on
each
> > > symbol, I'm sure) but also to help new people learn it quickly
and
> > > easily.
> > >
> > > --Star
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Support bacteria. It's the only culture some people have.
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing.
> http://photos.yahoo.com/




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paul vandenbrink skribis:
>
> I looked at the site you recommended for Quickscript, and it appears
> that Kingsley Read, did not provide a specific Quickscript character
> for the NG sound. Are you refering to the symbol for Noon? (aNd)
> That symbol looks more like a central character, rather than a Tall
> letter as you suggest. Perhaps I should be looking at a different
> site?
> Does Junior Quickscript have a NG letter?


It's the character called "ink."





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> 10. Yew letter redundant ==> Yea + Ooze
> 11. Missing letter for EU sound ==> Euchre, Beautiful, few, new,
cute

Don't the above two points contradict themselves? You say the 'yew'
is redundant, then say it is missing.

The 'yew' sign is an attempt to bridge a pronunciation divide caused
by phenomena known as 'later yod dropping'. This is where the 'y'
sound between an initial consonant and the 'oo' vowel sound is lost.
This causes new, duty and beauty to be pronounced 'noo', 'dooty'
and 'booty'.

As a person can only be on one side of the divide, it causes
the 'yew' sign to be seen as redundant by all. Some would say that it
is simply 'yea' + 'ooze' others say that 'yea' is intrusive and
only 'ooze' should be present. Of course either of these spellings
causes the word to become 'misspelt' to people who pronounce it
differently.

The 'yew' sign must be used in order to be inclusive of as many
pronunciations as possible. Later yod dropping is more widespread in
North America, especially with the young/urban. In Britain, Australia
and South Africa the pronunciation is restricted almost entirely to
the young, except the Norfolk dialect, which has been affected by
later yod dropping for several hundred years.


You can use this as a combined answer to 10 and 11 if you want Star.
Or just 10, and forget 11 altogether. You can jig it about as much as
pleases you.

By the way many of the questions give focus to stress, and the
misunderstandings surrounding it. I would just like to lay claim,
here and now, that shavian _is_ a stress representing script.

Thanks
Joseph

p.s. run most of these questions bu Hugh, he'll be able to give you
the best answers quickly.





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Ph. D. wrote:
> paul vandenbrink skribis:
>
>>I looked at the site you recommended for Quickscript, and it appears
>>that Kingsley Read, did not provide a specific Quickscript character
>>for the NG sound. Are you refering to the symbol for Noon? (aNd)
>>That symbol looks more like a central character, rather than a Tall
>>letter as you suggest. Perhaps I should be looking at a different
>>site?
>>Does Junior Quickscript have a NG letter?
>
>
>
> It's the character called "ink."

Philip, you beat me to it! Yes, it's the "ink" character. It's
identical to the Shavian "Hung".

Ethan




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paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Hi Star
> Thanks for getting the list going.
> I added a few. I am sure I and the other postman can come up with
> more.
> We need to define the extent of the problem before attempting to
> address the all the issues.
>
> 1. awe, ah, on. Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans

Many Americans do recognize these differences.

> 2. up, ado Soft U and Schwa sound
> 3. array, err(urge) Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans
> and more confusion between vowel+r diagraphs (air, err, er)

Do you mean how "err" (as in, To err is human) can be said both ways, X,
or x?

> 4. haha, hung
> 5. w, hw
> 6. t, d, glottal stop
> 7. syllabic consonants (el, le, om, an, es, ez)

Syllabic l, m, and n I can understand. But s and z?

> 8. abbreviations (short forms): the of and to too two you
> 9. Ian letter redundant ==> Eat + Ado

I use Ian all the time, such as in the word "Shavian" (SEvWn)

> 10. Yew letter redundant ==> Yea + Ooze

Same thing here - Yew, as in Universe

> 11. Missing letter for EU sound ==> Euchre, Beautiful, few, new, cute
> Dipthong

What missing letter? It's Yew, as in Universe, (Vnivxs) Eucre, (VkD)
few, (fV) cute (kVt).

> 12. unstressed soft i (If) at end of British pronounced words (silly)
> 13. Other American Standard vs British Standard differences
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> P.S. Question? Is Ian useful to represent some Non-Rhotic R sound
> substitute?

I would think you should be able to use Ian for that purpose, for
instance, rhotic Here: hC non-rhotic Here: hW

--
Ethan




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On 21 Dec 2003 at 13:58, Ethan wrote:

> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > P.S. Question? Is Ian useful to represent some Non-Rhotic R sound
> > substitute?
>
> I would think you should be able to use Ian for that purpose, for
> instance, rhotic Here: hC non-rhotic Here: hW

I think Shavian should always be written rhotically, even if the writer
does not have a rhotic dialect, on the principle that it's easier for
a reader to ignore distinctions he does not make than to insert ones
missing from the original. (For example, lY should be unambiguously
"law" and never "lore", even for those who pronounce those words
identically.)

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>




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Hi Joseph & Star
I guess I must be somewhere in the middle of this great divide
because I hear
hear something inbetween. I will call it the Stephanie Sound because
she would make it with great discrimination at least once on most of
the Bob (Newhart) TV Episodes. It was Euwh. A sound of disgust and
disapproval. It didn't sound like "you". It didn't sound like "Oo"
in Who.
It was something in-between. It seems fairly rare in my accent group.
It is obviously a good idea to keep "Yew" and assign it all 3 sound
values, than anyone seeing it will just use the appropriate one, and
keep on going unaware that they have crossed the great divide.
It is not a good idea to have to call on the ghost of Julie
somebody, who played Stephanie, so long ago. Probably, no one
remembers her and Larry, and Darryl, and his other brother Darryl.

Regards one and all. Happy Holidays.
Paul V.
P.S. Sorry, I missed Ink in the thick of all those Q-Script letters.
P.S. "ooze" -> Do,booty cookoo
EU -> Dew, duty, beauty,few,new,cue = queue
"Yew" -> you, union, yule, unite, unicorn (beginning of
syllable)

--- In shavian@..., "j_brg" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
>
> > 10. Yew letter redundant ==> Yea + Ooze
> > 11. Missing letter for EU sound ==> Euchre, Beautiful, few, new,
> cute
>
> Don't the above two points contradict themselves? You say
the 'yew'
> is redundant, then say it is missing.
>
> The 'yew' sign is an attempt to bridge a pronunciation divide
caused
> by phenomena known as 'later yod dropping'. This is where the 'y'
> sound between an initial consonant and the 'oo' vowel sound is
lost.
> This causes new, duty and beauty to be pronounced 'noo', 'dooty'
> and 'booty'.
>
> As a person can only be on one side of the divide, it causes
> the 'yew' sign to be seen as redundant by all. Some would say that
it
> is simply 'yea' + 'ooze' others say that 'yea' is intrusive and
> only 'ooze' should be present. Of course either of these spellings
> causes the word to become 'misspelt' to people who pronounce it
> differently.
>
> The 'yew' sign must be used in order to be inclusive of as many
> pronunciations as possible. Later yod dropping is more widespread
in
> North America, especially with the young/urban. In Britain,
Australia
> and South Africa the pronunciation is restricted almost entirely
to
> the young, except the Norfolk dialect, which has been affected by
> later yod dropping for several hundred years.
>
>
> You can use this as a combined answer to 10 and 11 if you want
Star.
> Or just 10, and forget 11 altogether. You can jig it about as much
as
> pleases you.
>
> By the way many of the questions give focus to stress, and the
> misunderstandings surrounding it. I would just like to lay claim,
> here and now, that shavian _is_ a stress representing script.
>
> Thanks
> Joseph
>
> p.s. run most of these questions bu Hugh, he'll be able to give
you
> the best answers quickly.




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