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Hi Philip
I believe Shavian was designed to isolate those differences between
Rhotic/Non-Rhotic pronunciations with a special set of characters.
(ar,air,ir(ear),or,er/ur)
And of course we should all use them even if our pronunciation is
Non-Rhotic. It is six Phonemes each with 2 pronunciations.

I just noticed that the form of the letter "Ian" seems to include it
in that special set of characters.
It looks like a truncated form of "Ear", but to what purpose.
Perhaps it is a vestige of an older style of RP pronunciation?

It is a good topic to be added to our list of stumbling blocks for
new users. (Star)
Please note. If there is 2 ways to spell the same word in Shavian,
there usually is a good reason.
Regards, Paul V.
___________________attached___________________


--- In shavian@..., "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...>
wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2003 at 13:58, Ethan wrote:
>
> > paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > > P.S. Question? Is Ian useful to represent some Non-Rhotic R
sound
> > > substitute?
> >
> > I would think you should be able to use Ian for that purpose,
for
> > instance, rhotic Here: hC non-rhotic Here: hW
>
> I think Shavian should always be written rhotically, even if the
writer
> does not have a rhotic dialect, on the principle that it's easier
for
> a reader to ignore distinctions he does not make than to insert
ones
> missing from the original. (For example, lY should be
unambiguously
> "law" and never "lore", even for those who pronounce those words
> identically.)
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@g...>




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That is an interesting idea... hmmm
As soon as I finish the newest draft, maybe y'all can read it and tell
me what you thing, besides I could use help in transliteration.

--Star

--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> 12/20/03 7:08:43 PM, RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Star writes:
> >
> > >> One up! I'm working on a novel that has some shavian already
> implemented.
> > I've also thought about doing a transliteration, as with
> Androcles.<<
> >
> >
> > Now that gives me a GREAT idea! How about a novel with all the
> "good parts"
> > in Shavian, with the lead up to them in T.O.?
> >
> > That'd get some readers!
> >
> > Bob Richmond
> >
> > (the other Shavian in East Tennessee)
>
> Hey, that's a great idea! They get interested in the story, and then
> they have
> to learn Shavian to read the rest! You could teach the alphabet a
> bit leading
> up to the rest, then switch completely over. Of course, you'd have
> to make it a
> good story!
>
> Ethan
>
>
>
>


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I agree that we have to have some idea as to where we're going before
we get there. My agreements and disagreements listed below, but I'd
like to see paragraphs on these:

> 1. awe, ah, on. Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans} I don't agree
that these are unrealistic, simply missing a proper explanation.

> 2. up, ado }Once again not well described as stressed versus
unstressed.

> 3. array, err(urge) Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans
> and more confusion between vowel+r diagraphs (air, err, er)} this
is a quickscript idea. Array and urge are basically the vowel+r
versions of up ado and up respectively.

> 4. haha, hung
> 5. w, hw
> 6. t, d, glottal stop
> 7. syllabic consonants (el, le, om, an, es, ez)
> 8. abbreviations (short forms): the of and to too two you
> 9. Ian letter redundant ==> Eat + Ado} a commonly used combo.
> 10. Yew letter redundant ==> Yea + Ooze} the answer to #11 below.
> 11. Missing letter for EU sound ==> Euchre, Beautiful, few, new, cute
> Dipthong
> 12. unstressed soft i (If) at end of British pronounced words
(silly)} not sure I fully understand from this side of the pond.

> 13. Other American Standard vs British Standard differences

Anyone else?


> P.S. Question? Is Ian useful to represent some Non-Rhotic R sound
> substitute?

As I mentioned above, it seems to be a combonation of a fairly common
sound.

Thanks,
--Star

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paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Hi Joseph & Star
> I guess I must be somewhere in the middle of this great divide
> because I hear
> hear something inbetween. I will call it the Stephanie Sound because
> she would make it with great discrimination at least once on most of
> the Bob (Newhart) TV Episodes. It was Euwh. A sound of disgust and
> disapproval. It didn't sound like "you". It didn't sound like "Oo"
> in Who.
> It was something in-between. It seems fairly rare in my accent group.

I think I know whereof you speak. I've heard it before, and to me it
sounded like a variation of the Yew, You, "U" phoneme. It's a
diphthong, best described as "iu" or "eeoo". It's not two separate
sounds, but an even fade which starts with "ee" and ends with "oo". I
always figured "Yew" was the right letter, "y" + "oo" OR "ee" + "oo".

--
Ethan




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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:

> I agree with most of what you say. I take exception with your
> statement that your changes to ha-ha and huNG would make Shaw
> Shaw closer to the original intended by the inventor.
> I consider that revision. A revision that improves the Shaw
> Alphabets internal consistency and makes it easier to remember
> and learn. All well and good.


This is not a revision, it is a correction. A correction of what must
have been a typographical error. The keywords ha and hung were,
how can it be doubted, somehow interchanged prior to printing and
not caught in time. It would not make the Shaw alphabet closer to
the original intended by the author, it would make it once again the
actual original.

ds




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--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:

> the /hw/ sound, Perhaps it was left out for
> aesthetic reasons :) ? I mean, after all, it
> would have no pairing.


Shouldn't it have been paired with its voiced counterpart,
/w/? whether/weather, whet/wet? (I'm sure they still use
whetstones near you.)

I still suspect that Read, as an RP speaker, simply did not hear
the /hw/ sound, or if he did, disapproved. George V used it.
His eldest son and successor Edward did not; his brother and
successor George VI did. Elizabeth sometimes does, other times
not. I know a family whose two children attended an institution
named the Wheeler School; the older, a boy, pronounced it /hw/
— his sister, younger by a year or two, pronounced it /w/. They
were unaware of this until I laughed and pointed it out to them.
It may be fashion; social linguists tell us that girls are more apt
to adapt newer modes of speech, while boys are more conservative
(a pattern reflected in politics as well).


> As for Grass/grice, it is not entirely correct. As my husband and
> I have learned by living in a rather rural area, the vowel is not so
> simple as changing a short a to long I. It's more af a vowel shift.
> The short a is flattened and moves to the far back of the throat,
> then is followed by a long e or even a long e and a second,
> shorter a. Another major difference, perhaps missed by most is
> the tempo which tends to, as above, lengthen the vowel sounds.


That was an exceptionally good description. You've been listening.


> God I love living in redneck country.

> --Star


Is that Chet Atkins country? And wouldn't they, technically, be
called hillbillies (no slur intended) or mountain-folk, with rhotic
accents? Rednecks, I thought, were the non-rhotic lowlanders,
before this word came to be a general-purpose social term.

regards,
dshep






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--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:


> If you are looking at making the alphabet "spotless"
> then definitely consider swapping 'err' and 'air'. They
> were quite clearly reversed by accident by the printers
> ('air' should be two 'egg's and a 'roll' [sounds tasty] and
> 'err' should be two 'ado's and a 'roll').


You are quite right about this and it ought to be done
as well.


> This is the one thing that bugs me. Getting newcomers
> to see the logic in the letters is difficult when 'err' looks
> too dissimilar to 'array' for people to see the relationship
> between them. A lot of people I'm sure are still unaware
> of the direct relationship between 'array' and 'err' and
> assume they are different sounds, or one is reserved for
> British dialects, > etc. 'Air' is also difficult to understand -
> it should be visible that it is a variant of 'egg'+'roll', but
> with more length on the 'egg'.


Right again. I've pushed the ha/hang thing to the point of
making a pest of myself, but unless the shaw alphabet is
made to be, I would insist, as logically consistent as it is
capable of being then these problems and subsequent
confusion will surface with every new generation of the
interested, thus turning them away. Moreover, failure to
do so will only re-affirm the sceptics' dismissal of the whole
scheme as not-quite-ready-for-prime-time, if it is so easy
to discover fault.

As for air/err/, this problem is compounded by the fact that
the majority pronunciation in America of /err/ usually rhymes
with /where/, not were — sorry, that may have been a bad
example, /were/ can rhyme with /where/ as well in some
speech areas. /Urge/ would have been a better choice of
keyword for that sound, would it not? Furthermore, I
pronounce /air/ with the more open sound of /at/; as does
David Attenborough, which I've just noticed on television.

I've tried to resolve this issue for myself by ignoring the air/err
digraphs and writing and using the vowel plus /r/; thus æ+r
(or e+r if you prefer) and U+r — not a perfect solution perhaps
but a way out of this problem while remaining within the limits
of the Shaw alphabet. This does however weaken the err/array
connection you pointed out; well, perhaps not — both would
still begin with the upward, forward-leaning stroke. Still, less
elegant perhaps.


> Whatever. Is it worth making a revised version? I don't think
> so. But it's still a niggle at the back of my mind.
>
> Hugh B

I don't consider it a revision, but a reversion to what the Shaw
alphabet was supposed to be. I could think of a few revisions,
but that's for another day.

regards,
David S




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--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:

> I wouldn't be too quick to assume that it was a typo in the
> preparation of Androcles. If you look at QuickScript you will
> see that, while the "h" letter has been moved to above the
> line, the "ng" letter has remained unchanged as a tall letter.
> I would assume that to be pretty good evidence that Read
> thought having the Hung as it is was proper. Though for the
> life of me I can't figure out why he would have done it that way!
>
> Ethan


It had to have been a typo, as was the air/err transposition.
When Read developed Quickscript he abandoned the tall/deep
voiceless/voiced concept as well as the reversed symmetry
between the two, so it no longer mattered where the /h/ or the
/ng/ was placed, they're both just arbitrary signs. While in
Quickscript there are now letters that are tall and some not so
tall, this no longer has any significance beyond convenience,
whereas in his first Shaw alphabet a letter's position as a tall
or deep letter conveyed a structural relationship which, though
it may at first appear overly contrived, should if it ever comes to
that greatly facilitate instruction. Remember, everyone in this
group is an enthusiast who needs no persuasion, others will
have to be shown a compelling clarity.

Regards,
David





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--- In shavian@..., "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:
> So am I to assume that theatrics don't work anymore?
>
> Damn it. Nevermind.


> Certainly more must be written in shavian for greater use and
> comfort to be gained. Perhaps the best thing to be written is
> original work. If something is only available in shavian then
> more people might learn it.


V r rFt; wI apaJFz




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--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Here's a brief explaination on why 'ha-ha' and 'hung'
> seem to contradict.
>
> 1. "hung" is tall I believe is tall for at least two reasons
> (a) it looks nice at the end of a syllable and
> (b) the first sub-element phoneme (n) is voiceless.
> It's only the last sub-element that is voiced.


> Carl


dont V bilIv [n] iz vqst? kAn V sE [n]
wiHQt ani vFbrESan in jOr vOkal kordz?

regyrdz,
ds






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