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On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:55, Ethan wrote:

> So, is capital G a good place to put the namer dot? Or do you think
> it should go somewhere else? If you think it should stay on the
> forward slash key, tell me now, and give me a good reason!

I think it should go at U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT rather than at "G" or "/"...
but that's in an ideal world where we use Unicode Shavian codepoints.

> I'm thinking that in the future, we will be using Shavian for
> filenames, URLs on the internet, and for other such uses where the
> forward slash will be needed. I think this change needs to be made
> now, before these future uses become a problem for Shavian.

Not a problem if we use Unicode, either from CSUR (which would be
rather broken) or from the real, allocated code points in the SMP.

If we need to use "ASCII Shavian", then I don't particularly mind
either way where it goes. G does sound better than / for the reasons
you stated, though / has the advantage that if you don't have an ASCII
Shavian font, it doesn't look so much like part of the word.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>




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On Monday, Jan 26, 2004, at 15:56 US/Eastern, Philip Newton wrote:

> On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:55, Ethan wrote:
>
>> So, is capital G a good place to put the namer dot? Or do you think
>> it should go somewhere else? If you think it should stay on the
>> forward slash key, tell me now, and give me a good reason!
>
> I think it should go at U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT rather than at "G" or "/"...
> but that's in an ideal world where we use Unicode Shavian codepoints.
>

As we should be using Unicode this is what the namer dot is. In my
Mac keyboard I have the capital B key generate this Unicode code point.
I chose it because it is unused in the "DeMeyere" keyboard of
characters. Capital G is just as valid from this point of view.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86




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Philip Newton wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:55, Ethan wrote:
>
>
>>So, is capital G a good place to put the namer dot? Or do you think
>>it should go somewhere else? If you think it should stay on the
>>forward slash key, tell me now, and give me a good reason!
>
>
> I think it should go at U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT rather than at "G" or "/"...
> but that's in an ideal world where we use Unicode Shavian codepoints.

Yes, I agree. I'm speaking more of the key to use for typing a namer
dot. Even when you use the Unicode implementation, you still have to
assign a key for the namer dot. If you've assigned the / key to the
U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT, then you need to reassign the / to some other key,
which doesn't really make much sense. But if G is acceptible, you
simply assign the MIDDLE DOT to the G key. I'm trying to determine if G
is an acceptible assignment for the keyboard layout, whether it be for
Unicode or ASCII Shavian. Specifically, I'm writing a conversion
program which will convert ASCII Shavian into Unicode Shavian, and I
think I want to leave all forward slashes untouched, rather than
converting them into namer dots.

>
>
>>I'm thinking that in the future, we will be using Shavian for
>>filenames, URLs on the internet, and for other such uses where the
>>forward slash will be needed. I think this change needs to be made
>>now, before these future uses become a problem for Shavian.
>
>
> Not a problem if we use Unicode, either from CSUR (which would be
> rather broken) or from the real, allocated code points in the SMP.

Exactly. As for CSUR, I would leave it alone, because it's outdated now
that Unicode 4 is out, and because you can't depend on what characters
might show up in that space, which I assume is what you meant by "broken".

>
> If we need to use "ASCII Shavian", then I don't particularly mind
> either way where it goes. G does sound better than / for the reasons
> you stated, though / has the advantage that if you don't have an ASCII
> Shavian font, it doesn't look so much like part of the word.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip

When I finish this conversion program, it should enable anybody to
convert their ASCII Shavian into Unicode SMP. If I don't convert
forward slashes into namer dots, then the ASCII document you wish to
convert will have to use capital G for namer dots, if that's the
standard which is agreeable for others. This is simple enough to do
using the find and replace function included in most text editors.

--
Ethan




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Scott Harrison wrote:
> On Monday, Jan 26, 2004, at 15:56 US/Eastern, Philip Newton wrote:
>
>
>>On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:55, Ethan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So, is capital G a good place to put the namer dot? Or do you think
>>>it should go somewhere else? If you think it should stay on the
>>>forward slash key, tell me now, and give me a good reason!
>>
>>I think it should go at U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT rather than at "G" or "/"...
>>but that's in an ideal world where we use Unicode Shavian codepoints.
>>
>
>
> As we should be using Unicode this is what the namer dot is. In my
> Mac keyboard I have the capital B key generate this Unicode code point.
> I chose it because it is unused in the "DeMeyere" keyboard of
> characters. Capital G is just as valid from this point of view.
>

I could add capital B into my conversion program too, along with capital
G. But then, which is more often used? I don't know if any ascii
shavian fonts have been designed with B as namer dot, but I do know
DeMeyere's fonts use the G.

Another question is, what if someone wants to assign capital B to some
other symbol or letter later on? It might be good to leave it empty for
now, if we can agree on the G key for the namer dot in the "Traditional"
keyboard layout. Others are welcome to use whatever layout is best for
them, but I'm mainly concerned with the traditional one for this ascii
to unicode conversion program.

--
Ethan




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Question: Is there some way of using my keyboard set up where the namer
dot is a lower case q, and to do so in winderz expuh?

--Star

--- Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
> On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:55, Ethan wrote:
>
> > So, is capital G a good place to put the namer dot? Or do you
> think
> > it should go somewhere else? If you think it should stay on the
> > forward slash key, tell me now, and give me a good reason!
>
> I think it should go at U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT rather than at "G" or
> "/"...
> but that's in an ideal world where we use Unicode Shavian codepoints.
>
> > I'm thinking that in the future, we will be using Shavian for
> > filenames, URLs on the internet, and for other such uses where the
> > forward slash will be needed. I think this change needs to be made
> > now, before these future uses become a problem for Shavian.
>
> Not a problem if we use Unicode, either from CSUR (which would be
> rather broken) or from the real, allocated code points in the SMP.
>
> If we need to use "ASCII Shavian", then I don't particularly mind
> either way where it goes. G does sound better than / for the reasons
> you stated, though / has the advantage that if you don't have an
> ASCII
> Shavian font, it doesn't look so much like part of the word.
>
> Cheers,
> Philip
> --
> Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
>
>


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On Monday, Jan 26, 2004, at 16:18 US/Eastern, Ethan wrote:

> Scott Harrison wrote:
>> On Monday, Jan 26, 2004, at 15:56 US/Eastern, Philip Newton wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 26 Jan 2004 at 14:55, Ethan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> So, is capital G a good place to put the namer dot? Or do you think
>>>> it should go somewhere else? If you think it should stay on the
>>>> forward slash key, tell me now, and give me a good reason!
>>>
>>> I think it should go at U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT rather than at "G" or
>>> "/"...
>>> but that's in an ideal world where we use Unicode Shavian codepoints.
>>>
>>
>>
>> As we should be using Unicode this is what the namer dot is. In my
>> Mac keyboard I have the capital B key generate this Unicode code
>> point.
>> I chose it because it is unused in the "DeMeyere" keyboard of
>> characters. Capital G is just as valid from this point of view.
>>
>
> I could add capital B into my conversion program too, along with
> capital
> G. But then, which is more often used? I don't know if any ascii
> shavian fonts have been designed with B as namer dot, but I do know
> DeMeyere's fonts use the G.
>
> Another question is, what if someone wants to assign capital B to some
> other symbol or letter later on? It might be good to leave it empty
> for
> now, if we can agree on the G key for the namer dot in the
> "Traditional"
> keyboard layout. Others are welcome to use whatever layout is best for
> them, but I'm mainly concerned with the traditional one for this ascii
> to unicode conversion program.
>
>
You should not need to add capital B to your conversion. I may well
be the only person that has ever used that configuration -- and only
because when I first started doing Shavian I did not want to use the /
as the namer dot key. You will note that I never generate ASCII when I
type in Shavian so I would never be sending a capital B anywhere.

My capital B usage has actually existed for a LONG time (since I first
started on NeXTSTEP), but is only a key mapping and anyone could change
it if they wanted. When more people usa Macs perhaps we can think
about this. :-)

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86




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Star Raven wrote:
> Question: Is there some way of using my keyboard set up where the namer
> dot is a lower case q, and to do so in winderz expuh?
>
> --Star

It's possible, of course, but then you'd have to find another key for Oil...

--
Ethan




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Scott Harrison wrote:
>
> You should not need to add capital B to your conversion. I may well
> be the only person that has ever used that configuration -- and only
> because when I first started doing Shavian I did not want to use the /
> as the namer dot key. You will note that I never generate ASCII when I
> type in Shavian so I would never be sending a capital B anywhere.
>
> My capital B usage has actually existed for a LONG time (since I first
> started on NeXTSTEP), but is only a key mapping and anyone could change
> it if they wanted. When more people usa Macs perhaps we can think
> about this. :-)
>

Well, since you are already able to generate Unicode with your computer,
and can set your keyboard up for whatever layout you want, you really
have no worries. The main purpose of this program is for use as a tool
for people who don't have the ability to generate Unicode, or who can't
do it easily. Anybody can produce ascii, so with this tool you can
write in ascii and run it through the filter to produce unicode. Also,
for people who have documents written in ascii and want to convert them
to unicode.
--
Ethan




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In mine q is empty save for the namer dot. Oil is off somewhere.

--Star

--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> Star Raven wrote:
> > Question: Is there some way of using my keyboard set up where the
> namer
> > dot is a lower case q, and to do so in winderz expuh?
> >
> > --Star
>
> It's possible, of course, but then you'd have to find another key for
> Oil...
>
> --
> Ethan
>
>


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Star Raven wrote:
> In mine q is empty save for the namer dot. Oil is off somewhere.
>
> --Star

Well, then you're in the same situation as Scott with his capital B.
You don't need the conversion program unless you use ascii Shavian and
want to convert it to Unicode, so it wouldn't affect you if I use the
capital G. Nevertheless, I will take note of your preference, if you
will tell me the rest of the keys you are using, and I might be able to
create an option in my program to allow the use of alternate keys. In
fact, I might see if I can support the use of a simple key map file,
which would allow you to define your own keyboard layout, and will
convert it accordingly to the proper code points. I can't promise this
for the first version, though!

--
Ethan




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