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On Monday, Feb 9, 2004, at 23:37 US/Eastern, Ethan wrote:

Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
?????? ?????????????? ?????? ?? ·?????????? ?????????? ???? ??????
???????????

Yes, on my Mac OS X system this is not a problem.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

Toggle Shavian

>>> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬ ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬¬¬ ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬?
Yes, on my Mac OS X system this is not a problem.<<

I can't read it - just question marks or lines - on a MacOS system using the America Online (AOL) mail client.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Scissors question

> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > P.S. Just a personal preference, but I would like to hear more about
> > Practical matters, rather than discuss a hypothetical test case,
> > over and over.
>
> Yes, practical matters, like how to get Shavian working well on our
> computers!
> ??????, ?????????????????? ??????????, ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ·??????????
> ?????????? ?????? ???? ???? ????????????????!
>
> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> ?????? ?????????????? ?????? ?? ·?????????? ?????????? ???? ??????
> ???????????
> --
> ·???????? (Ethan)

All I see are squares.

Hugh B

Toggle Shavian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Scissors question

> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > P.S. Just a personal preference, but I would like to hear more about
> > Practical matters, rather than discuss a hypothetical test case,
> > over and over.
>
> Yes, practical matters, like how to get Shavian working well on our
> computers!
> ??????, ?????????????????? ??????????, ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ·??????????
> ?????????? ?????? ???? ???? ????????????????!
>
> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> ?????? ?????????????? ?????? ?? ·?????????? ?????????? ???? ??????
> ???????????
> --
> ·???????? (Ethan)

All I see are squares.

Hugh B

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Toggle Shavian

RSRICHMOND@aol.com wrote:
> >>> Can anybody read the Shavian text in this message?
> ?????? ?????????????? ?????? ?? ??????
> ???? ?????????? ???? ?????? ???????????
> Yes, on my Mac OS X system this is not a problem.<<
>
> I can't read it - just question marks or lines - on a MacOS system using
> the America Online (AOL) mail client.
>
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

Perhaps you just need to download and install a Unicode Shavian font?
Are you running OS X? I have a font available which should work on that
system, at least it works for Scott it works.
http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html

One thing I noticed is that your email was sent in a Japanese
characterset, ISO-2022-JP. I wonder if that has anything to do with
your problem? My text is encoded in UTF-8. Try the font and try
setting your AOL client to use that font and UTF-8 encoding, if
possible. I don't know anything about AOL, so I can't help you much on
how to adjust it, if it's even possible.

--
·???????? - Ethan

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Toggle Shavian

Hi Folks,

I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?

Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important, though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.

Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.

best regards,

Carl

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Toggle Shavian

carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
> discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What
> role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
>
> Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important,
> though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be
> allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should
> be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving
> variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status
> of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing
> texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written
> English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in
> bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.
>
> Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the
> role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl

I think it should be all of that, and of course nobody is preventing
that from happening, there are no laws against it, etc. It just needs
more exposure.

But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is the
role I think it should play - it should be taught to young children who
haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in this way,
these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity, not
fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current system
is. More children would learn to read, and would read better. There
would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading disorders.
Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they have
already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major jump to
go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing to
Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.

The other benefit of this is the fact that if you teach the children
Shavian in this generation, then by next generation it will have become
normal and you will see it used everywhere, and almost everybody will be
able to read and write it.

--
·???????? - Ethan

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<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@...

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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Toggle Shavian

Hi Ethan,

I see your point. The only reason I didn't mention teaching Shavian to Children is because of how entrenched T.O. is to older generations. Shavian can be taught first, then T.O. But, T.O. is the official form of written English to the authorities, such as schools, banks, and government. So there still is the need to learn and keep T.O.. I believe we both can see how much more enjoyable reading can be if Shavian is more "exposed" like you say. So once I get a computer of my own I will help transliterate books and seek permission to publish existing books into Shavian. (Just like translating a book into a foreign language to the public.)

Best Regards,

Carl /kRal/

Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
> discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What
> role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
>
> Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important,
> though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be
> allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should
> be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving
> variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status
> of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing
> texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written
> English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in
> bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.
>
> Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the
> role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl

I think it should be all of that, and of course nobody is preventing
that from happening, there are no laws against it, etc. It just needs
more exposure.

But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is the
role I think it should play - it should be taught to young children who
haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in this way,
these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity, not
fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current system
is. More children would learn to read, and would read better. There
would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading disorders.
Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they have
already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major jump to
go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing to
Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.

The other benefit of this is the fact that if you teach the children
Shavian in this generation, then by next generation it will have become
normal and you will see it used everywhere, and almost everybody will be
able to read and write it.

--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan

________________________________

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________________________________

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* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

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shavian-unsubscribe@... <mailto:shavian-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>

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Toggle Shavian

Hi Ethan,

I see your point. The only reason I didn't mention teaching Shavian to Children is because of how entrenched T.O. is to older generations. Shavian can be taught first, then T.O. But, T.O. is the official form of written English to the authorities, such as schools, banks, and government. So there still is the need to learn and keep T.O.. I believe we both can see how much more enjoyable reading can be if Shavian is more "exposed" like you say. So once I get a computer of my own I will help transliterate books and seek permission to publish existing books into Shavian. (Just like translating a book into a foreign language to the public.)

Best Regards,

Carl /kRal/

Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

carl easton wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly
> discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What
> role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?
>
> Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important,
> though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be
> allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should
> be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving
> variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status
> of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing
> texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written
> English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in
> bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.
>
> Now that I rambled for a paragraph. What you my Shavian Friends say the
> role of Shavian be to the English-speaking world.
>
> best regards,
>
> Carl

I think it should be all of that, and of course nobody is preventing
that from happening, there are no laws against it, etc. It just needs
more exposure.

But the one thing which I think would do the most for Shavian is the
role I think it should play - it should be taught to young children who
haven't yet learned how to read! Perhaps if it were used in this way,
these children would find reading to be an enjoyable activity, not
fraught with spelling and pronuciation problems as the current system
is. More children would learn to read, and would read better. There
would be fewer problems with dislexia and other such reading disorders.
Then the traditional orthography could be taught, after they have
already gained the concept of reading in Shavian. It's a major jump to
go from not reading at all to reading TO, but to go from nothing to
Shavian and from Shavian to TO would be easier, I believe.

The other benefit of this is the fact that if you teach the children
Shavian in this generation, then by next generation it will have become
normal and you will see it used everywhere, and almost everybody will be
able to read and write it.

--
·𐑰𐑔𐑩𐑯 - Ethan

________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html>

________________________________

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
shavian-unsubscribe@... <mailto:shavian-unsubscribe@...?subject=Unsubscribe>

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .

Toggle Shavian

On Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004, at 16:40 US/Eastern, carl easton wrote:

Hi Folks,

I don't know it this issue has been brought up or even thouroughly discussed. So I decided to test the waters. The Question posed: "What role should Shavian play to the English-speaking, literate world?

Allow me to speculate. What I believe it should be is an important, though, secondary option in writing English. Meaning, Shavian should be allowed to be public in bookstores and libraries. I believe it should be taught at the college or post-high school level, as a means of giving variety in reading and writing English. It should be given the status of another language of sorts (mostly for tranliterating existing texts.) Though I don't think it should be the official form of written English, it should be allowed to exist public (as mentioned before) in bookstores and library, as it is in private homes of Shavian Enthusiasts.

I believe that it could be adopted as an official format for writing English. However, it would probably be best done in a small country that does not have too large an expense of publishing official documents. It would probably exist side-by-side with T.O. until some period of years had passed. And then the T.O. could be removed. I would imagine this small country would be a testbed for other countries. Eventually all English-speaking countries could do the same technique. They key thing is to demonstrate that using Shavian for English is much better for the readers of English than T.O. And it has to be done in a large fashion (i.e., roadsigns, official publications, newspapers, etc.) otherwise it remains a pleasant oddity.

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

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