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When I discovered the Shaw alphabet while browsing in a bookshop -
reading a book on writing systems.

I wanted to get resources and specifically "The Shaw Alphabet Edition of
Androcles and the Lion".

I was surprised how easy it was to get on the Internet.

The copy I got is a first edition paperback (original cost 3 shillings
and sixpence) with the guide card still with it.

I paid 5 GBP plus post for my copy that is approximately 9 USD and 7.50
EUR.

It was Published by Penguin and doesn't appear to have an ISBN number.

I do urge people to find it as it has useful articles in the front in
form of introduction to the script and at the end giving a rationale
for the spellings chosen. It is helpful to read these as they would cut
down the pronunciation transcription discussions.

John Warner

start of Shavian ...
V sE ITx F sE FTx
V sE nITx F sE nFTx
ITx FTx nITx nFTx
lets kol H hOl HiN of
... end of Shavian
--
John Warner

john.warner@...



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That's an approximation. Ooze+Eat isn't a common combination, so it
could be used with out generating too much confusion.
You have to say it fast with a glide and lip-rounding.
Maybe it is particular to Canadian French.

Salut, Paul V.

P.S. There us to be a farm word like Whoa for horse.
Soo-ee for pigs. or Phooey for humans.

--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If
>
> En Français, on dit "oui" comme "we" (?`¢?`°) en Anglais.
> Je n'ai jamais entendu personne qui prononce le "oui" comme "ou-i"
(?`µ?`°
> ou ?`µ?`¦).
>
> In French, you say "oui" like "we" (?`¢?`°)in English.
> I have never heard anyone pronounce the word "oui" like "oo-ee" (?
`µ?`° or
> ?`µ?`¦).
>
> --
> ·?`°?`"?`©?`¯ - Ethan



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Hi Hugh
I consider it a great idea to consider the letter "Yew" as Phoneme
for both the "you" sound and the "eu" sound. Most people get them
confused in any case, and if they were both represented by the same
letter, it wouldn't matter.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., mixsynth@f... wrote:
> Paul V wrote:
>
> > I do that myself for 2 English vowels that don't have their own
Shaw
> > Letter.
> > The EU of Euchre and few, I write If+Ooze
> > And the UI of the French Oui I write Ooze+If
> > It's funny (peculiar) that these two Dipthongs are the reverse of
> > each other.
>
> Personally, and for most people i can think of, [V] and [wI] are
good enough.
>
> To use 'if'+'ooze' for Euchre implies to me that the word is spoken
with 3 syllables (when in fact the first "syllable" ee sound is a
GLIDE into the oo sound); similarly 'ooze'+'eat' would sound like the
2-syllabled "ooey" in "gooey" or "phooey" (the initial oo sound
in 'oui' is the other kind of glide).
>
> > And for OA of Boa Constrictor, I just add an Adu. Oat+Ado
> > Much as my preferred spelling of Ian as Eat+Adu.
>
> Both of these i also do.
>
> > P.S. By the way. Thanks for the comments. I find it educational,
as
> > well.
>
> I always think its got to be good for speakers of english to
discuss how to write their language phonemicly - because its a skill
most of us arent familiar with!
>
> Hugh B



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Hi Hugh,

Just like you I too, am also use all 48 shavian letters, though it may seem I shouldn't due to my Utahn accent.

best of regards,

Carl

mixsynth@... wrote:

Paul V wrote:

>First. realize that wh and w >in the AHD Dictionary are >already
>collapsed into the Shaw >Letter Woe.

It doesnt mean people cant use it between themselves. But 'wh' im sure is largely ignored across the english speaking world so it probably wouldnt feature in any standard spelling. I dont know many dictionaries that do feature it.

>And there is no equivalent >to the Shaw Letters Yew >and Ian.

Well its easy enough to interpret [jM] as [V], isnt it? I still dont see any problem with that letter. As for ian i'd agree that its probably pointless, at least as far as the AHD's concerned - but that doesnt mean that there arent people out there who say that sound (long 'if' or non-rhotic 'ear' sound) and need the letter. So dont do away with it.

>I would like to collapse the >a with the umlat (father) >and the soft o
>(got) into the Shaw Letter >Ahms.

I dont know of a letter alms - you mean ah?

And no, as has been discussed, ah cant be merged with on. Shavian isnt just supposed to be for americans. The distinction is needed by speakers of british english, australian english and im sure guite a few speakers of american english. The ahd keeps the distinction so why mess with it? Besides it really isnt difficult to remember the few words where you would use 'ah' and just use 'on' for all other occurrences.

>I would like to also collapse >the schwar (butter) and ur >(term) into
>the Shaw letter Array.

Same as above. Why mess with it if you have a dictionary that explains when to use either letter instead of the other? Also see below.

>Finally, I would like to >collapse the letter u and >the letter schwa
>into the Shaw letter Up.

Shavian implicitly represents stress. To do that it uses two different symbols for the 'uh' sound. This will never change, and it isnt difficult to get the hang of using them.

>I think the letter Ado >should actally be reserved >to indicate
>consonants which are >complete syllables in >themselves.

Why would it need to be reserved? It can already be used for that purpose.

>For example, the l in girl

i didnt think this had 2 syllables.

>P.S. Realize this does make >the Shaw letters On and >Err extraneous.
>Final result would be a >more effective Shaw >Alphabet of 44 letters.

Of course, weve already tried this exact same approach, it was called Cut Shavian. Nobody was interested. Rather than create yet another 'modified shavian' lets concentrate on getting shavian PROPER going.

If anyone has problems with the phonemes mentioned above: www.dictionary.com will help.

Hugh B



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Hi Star,

Just like you I too, have found occasion to use all of the Shavian letters. And I agree about the distinction with "w" and "hw" though personally for the "hw" phoneme I use both "ha-ha" and "woe" I know this is old-fashion but I guess I would like to preserve 'Classic Shavian' the way it is.

best of regards,

Carl

Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

A wonderful reply, Hugh, and thank you for the good read. Between the
two of you, this looks like an FAQ to me ;) as this is the sum total of
the discussions we've had before.

Although I have to add, I do prefer having the /wh/ phenome, but I'll
live, I suppose, or keep using my own wh (if I ever have time to learn
font making, I will add this one into my own font).

Thanks and be joyous!
--Star

--- mixsynth@... wrote:
> Paul V wrote:
>
> >First. realize that wh and w >in the AHD Dictionary are >already
> >collapsed into the Shaw >Letter Woe.
>
> It doesnt mean people cant use it between themselves. But 'wh' im
> sure is largely ignored across the english speaking world so it
> probably wouldnt feature in any standard spelling. I dont know many
> dictionaries that do feature it.
>
> >And there is no equivalent >to the Shaw Letters Yew >and Ian.
>
> Well its easy enough to interpret [jM] as [V], isnt it? I still dont
> see any problem with that letter. As for ian i'd agree that its
> probably pointless, at least as far as the AHD's concerned - but that
> doesnt mean that there arent people out there who say that sound
> (long 'if' or non-rhotic 'ear' sound) and need the letter. So dont do
> away with it.
>
> >I would like to collapse the >a with the umlat (father) >and the
> soft o
> >(got) into the Shaw Letter >Ahms.
>
> I dont know of a letter alms - you mean ah?
>
> And no, as has been discussed, ah cant be merged with on. Shavian
> isnt just supposed to be for americans. The distinction is needed by
> speakers of british english, australian english and im sure guite a
> few speakers of american english. The ahd keeps the distinction so
> why mess with it? Besides it really isnt difficult to remember the
> few words where you would use 'ah' and just use 'on' for all other
> occurrences.
>
> >I would like to also collapse >the schwar (butter) and ur >(term)
> into
> >the Shaw letter Array.
>
> Same as above. Why mess with it if you have a dictionary that
> explains when to use either letter instead of the other? Also see
> below.
>
> >Finally, I would like to >collapse the letter u and >the letter
> schwa
> >into the Shaw letter Up.
>
> Shavian implicitly represents stress. To do that it uses two
> different symbols for the 'uh' sound. This will never change, and it
> isnt difficult to get the hang of using them.
>
> >I think the letter Ado >should actally be reserved >to indicate
> >consonants which are >complete syllables in >themselves.
>
> Why would it need to be reserved? It can already be used for that
> purpose.
>
> >For example, the l in girl
>
> i didnt think this had 2 syllables.
>
> >P.S. Realize this does make >the Shaw letters On and >Err
> extraneous.
> >Final result would be a >more effective Shaw >Alphabet of 44
> letters.
>
> Of course, weve already tried this exact same approach, it was called
> Cut Shavian. Nobody was interested. Rather than create yet another
> 'modified shavian' lets concentrate on getting shavian PROPER going.
>
> If anyone has problems with the phonemes mentioned above:
> www.dictionary.com will help.
>
> Hugh B
>
>


=====
Why is it always me and the burning death?




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Hi Folks,

I noticed time and again that I have more than one dream a week where Shavian is involved with it. I'm curious if any of my Shavian Friends have this occurance too.

Best of Regards,

Carl

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John Warner incurred the wrath of Bob on Apr 16, by saying

>
>start of Shavian ...
>V sE ITx F sE FTx
>V sE nITx F sE nFTx
>ITx FTx nITx nFTx
>lets kol H hOl HiN of
>... end of Shavian
>

I think you've reversed H and T here.

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
> Are there any fixed-width fonts out there? I've had barely enough time
> to even keep up with this list lately, let alone play with Shavian, but
> if I did, that's something I might find useful. Just a thought.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Bob Schmertz

Actually, I was thinking of making one. That'll have to be my next font project. Right
after the three or four others I need to do. I'll get to work on those.

Regards,
Joe



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--- In shavian@..., "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@g...> wrote:=


> Well, Shavian is designed for *English*. If you want it to be able to
> represent any phoneme at all, you're probably better off using IPA.
>
> Otherwise you'll need letters not only for /ø/ (German ö, French eu)
> and /y/ (German ü, French u), but also /x/ (German ach-Laut, Russian
> kh) and (SAMPA) /G/ (Greek gamma), and Hungarian <gy>, and Croatian
> <c'>, and ...
>
> I'd say, if you're using Shavian, spell it as closely as is possible.
> It'll be a transcription, by necessity, not a transliteration: you
> won't be able to capture the original pronunciation unambiguously. I
> also wouldn't use new digraphs, comparable to the English <zh> for the
> "measure" sound in e.g. Russian words.
>
> If you want to be more precise, use a different alphabet: the Roman
> alphabet with a "standard" transcription, the native alphabet, or IPA.
> (Maybe the last is best, then people only have to learn Shavian + IPA,
> not Shavian + Roman with a variety of transcription schemes + Cyrillic
> + Georgian + Armenian + Chinese characters + ....)


Very true. For now, I have it with the same ö that I use in Roman, but I m=

ay just use
IPA, at least for the non-English sounds.

> It'll be a specialist spelling, then, one not immediately obvious to
> someone who only knows the basic Shavian alphabet. So if they have to
> learn something new anyway, that could work. (Just like people who know
> the Roman alphabet and learn Chinese via Pinyin have to learn new
> values for letters such as <q> and <x>, and become used to writing <ü>
> as distinct from <u>.)

I don't know Chinese, but I've seen some strange spelling schemes. I mean =

besides
Roman for English. I think IPA will do, though.




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--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> Just like you I too, have found occasion to use all of the Shavian letters. And I agree
about the distinction with "w" and "hw" though personally for the "hw" phoneme I use
both "ha-ha" and "woe" I know this is old-fashion but I guess I would like to preserve
'Classic Shavian' the way it is.

I wouldn't mind having an extra letter for /hw/. I already use some of my own
ligatures and morphemic letters. Of course, any new letter would be entirely
optional.

Regards,
Joe



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