Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

--- In shavian@..., carl easton <shavintel16@y...> wrote:
> I noticed time and again that I have more than one dream a week where Shavian is
involved with it. I'm curious if any of my Shavian Friends have this occurance too.

I can't say I have, but now that it's come up, I probably will. :)



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Joe incurred the wrath of Bob on Apr 17, by saying

>--- In shavian@..., Bob Schmertz <rschmertz@s...> wrote:
>> Are there any fixed-width fonts out there? I've had barely enough time
>> to even keep up with this list lately, let alone play with Shavian, but
>> if I did, that's something I might find useful. Just a thought.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Bob Schmertz
>
>Actually, I was thinking of making one. That'll have to be my next
>font project. Right after the three or four others I need to do.
>I'll get to work on those.

Thanks. And remember, you could always raise the priority on that. You
could probably skip your daughter's piano recital, for example; just
tell her you've got to make a fixed-width Shavian font, and she'll be
sure to understand (as a bonus, everyone else will be out of the
house, and you'll be free to really focus on it!).

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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It seems to me to be a slightly different sound, but I do understand
your point. I believe that there is a distinction in the sounds and
wonder if haha+woe would not just be confusing when sounding out words
for the first time.

--Star

--- carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:
> Hi Star,
>
> Just like you I too, have found occasion to use all of the Shavian
> letters. And I agree about the distinction with "w" and "hw" though
> personally for the "hw" phoneme I use both "ha-ha" and "woe" I know
> this is old-fashion but I guess I would like to preserve 'Classic
> Shavian' the way it is.
>
> best of regards,
>
> Carl
>
> Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
> A wonderful reply, Hugh, and thank you for the good read. Between the
> two of you, this looks like an FAQ to me ;) as this is the sum total
> of
> the discussions we've had before.
>
> Although I have to add, I do prefer having the /wh/ phenome, but I'll
> live, I suppose, or keep using my own wh (if I ever have time to
> learn
> font making, I will add this one into my own font).
>
> Thanks and be joyous!
> --Star
>
> --- mixsynth@... wrote:
> > Paul V wrote:
> >
> > >First. realize that wh and w >in the AHD Dictionary are >already
> > >collapsed into the Shaw >Letter Woe.
> >
> > It doesnt mean people cant use it between themselves. But 'wh' im
> > sure is largely ignored across the english speaking world so it
> > probably wouldnt feature in any standard spelling. I dont know many
> > dictionaries that do feature it.
> >
> > >And there is no equivalent >to the Shaw Letters Yew >and Ian.
> >
> > Well its easy enough to interpret [jM] as [V], isnt it? I still
> dont
> > see any problem with that letter. As for ian i'd agree that its
> > probably pointless, at least as far as the AHD's concerned - but
> that
> > doesnt mean that there arent people out there who say that sound
> > (long 'if' or non-rhotic 'ear' sound) and need the letter. So dont
> do
> > away with it.
> >
> > >I would like to collapse the >a with the umlat (father) >and the
> > soft o
> > >(got) into the Shaw Letter >Ahms.
> >
> > I dont know of a letter alms - you mean ah?
> >
> > And no, as has been discussed, ah cant be merged with on. Shavian
> > isnt just supposed to be for americans. The distinction is needed
> by
> > speakers of british english, australian english and im sure guite a
> > few speakers of american english. The ahd keeps the distinction so
> > why mess with it? Besides it really isnt difficult to remember the
> > few words where you would use 'ah' and just use 'on' for all other
> > occurrences.
> >
> > >I would like to also collapse >the schwar (butter) and ur >(term)
> > into
> > >the Shaw letter Array.
> >
> > Same as above. Why mess with it if you have a dictionary that
> > explains when to use either letter instead of the other? Also see
> > below.
> >
> > >Finally, I would like to >collapse the letter u and >the letter
> > schwa
> > >into the Shaw letter Up.
> >
> > Shavian implicitly represents stress. To do that it uses two
> > different symbols for the 'uh' sound. This will never change, and
> it
> > isnt difficult to get the hang of using them.
> >
> > >I think the letter Ado >should actally be reserved >to indicate
> > >consonants which are >complete syllables in >themselves.
> >
> > Why would it need to be reserved? It can already be used for that
> > purpose.
> >
> > >For example, the l in girl
> >
> > i didnt think this had 2 syllables.
> >
> > >P.S. Realize this does make >the Shaw letters On and >Err
> > extraneous.
> > >Final result would be a >more effective Shaw >Alphabet of 44
> > letters.
> >
> > Of course, weve already tried this exact same approach, it was
> called
> > Cut Shavian. Nobody was interested. Rather than create yet another
> > 'modified shavian' lets concentrate on getting shavian PROPER
> going.
> >
> > If anyone has problems with the phonemes mentioned above:
> > www.dictionary.com will help.
> >
> > Hugh B
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Why is it always me and the burning death?
>
>
>
>
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=====
Why is it always me and the burning death?




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In a previous episode, shavian@... said:

> Hi Hugh
> I consider it a great idea to consider the letter "Yew" as Phoneme
> for both the "you" sound and the "eu" sound. Most people get them
> confused in any case, and if they were both represented by the same
> letter, it wouldn't matter.
>
> Regards, Paul V.

Umm, I don't think I'm confusing them. They are just the same. You,
euchre, unit, eucharist all start with <you> according to AHD4. Please
present a minimal pair if anyone wants to claim that this eu sound is its
own phoneme deserving its own letter. As for oui, why would it be spelled
any differently than we? MOST sounds are pronounced slightly differently in
French. That's why French people have French accents. It would be absurd
to create an entire new set of letters to represent those different
pronunciations in Shavian. Shavian is an English alphabet. If you want to
be able to represent the subtleties of every spoken language, by all means,
use the IPA.

One strength of the Latin alphabet is that, in being non-phonetic, or
locally phonetic, words can be transferred between the languages that use it
without bothering with the details of pronunciation. It will still be
recognizable and pronunciation can work itself out in the linguistic free
market/evolutionary battlefield.

Craig



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Hi Craig
Sorry, I shouldn't have brought up the french pronunciation of "oui".
You are right. it is way off topic. I just wanted to make the point
that there are a lot of possible Dipthongs, must of which are quite
uncommon, but still occasionally found in Foreign words or names
borrowed into English.
It would be nice if Shaw Alphabet had a variable letter that
represented any foreign non-matching consonant, and another letter
which represented any foreign non-matching vowel sound just for those
occasional Foreign Loan words.

Let me
present a few minimal pairs
as I'd like to claim that this eu sound has its
own phonetic pronunciation. Does not mean it is necessarily deserving
of its own letter. I kind of like the idea of "you" and "eeuuh"
sharing the Shaw Yew letter.

Minimal pairs
1. you eeuuh (sound of disgust) common English interjection
(Stephanie on the Bob (Newhart Show) made constant use
of it.
2. fuel few
3. music mew
4. pew phew

I agree with your statement that Latin alphabet has the apparent
advantage of allowing words can be transferred between the languages
as long as you don't have to bother with the details of
pronunciation.
This is great if you are Deaf or if you only communicate through
writing for some other reason. Chinese also has a non-phonetic system
of writing that works great across Language barriers.
The problem is that most people learn to communicate vocally and than
attempt to transfer those skills to a written medium.
You used to have to be a Mandarin, a highly trained civil servant to
be literate in Chinese. Maybe 8 or 12 years education just to learn
to write your own language.

I would like a more Democratic writing system, where anyone, not just
professional students can learn to read, without a lot of
memorization. That's the direction, English in T.O. is going.
And our society and especially our computers can't handle mis-
spelling in T.O.
As a programmer, tell me what happens if you type 0 instead of Oh,
into a computer program or password prompt. Looks the same doesn't it.

Of course, English in T.O. has benefits. And since we've all already
learned it the hard way, why rock the boat.
Look around. In our modern education oriented word, with tons and
time and money spent on teaching, a lot of people have still missed
the boat as far as gaining effective literacy.
What do you tell them.
What do you tell their kids?

Regards, Paul V.

_________attached___________________________________



--- In shavian@..., Craig Butz <shavian@w...> wrote:
> In a previous episode, shavian@... said:
>
> > Hi Hugh
> > I consider it a great idea to consider the letter "Yew" as Phoneme
> > for both the "you" sound and the "eu" sound. Most people get them
> > confused in any case, and if they were both represented by the
same
> > letter, it wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
> Umm, I don't think I'm confusing them. They are just the same.
You,
> euchre, unit, eucharist all start with <you> according to AHD4.
Please
> present a minimal pair if anyone wants to claim that this eu sound
is its
> own phoneme deserving its own letter. As for oui, why would it be
spelled
> any differently than we? MOST sounds are pronounced slightly
differently in
> French. That's why French people have French accents. It would be
absurd
> to create an entire new set of letters to represent those different
> pronunciations in Shavian. Shavian is an English alphabet. If you
want to
> be able to represent the subtleties of every spoken language, by
all means,
> use the IPA.
>
> One strength of the Latin alphabet is that, in being non-phonetic,
or
> locally phonetic, words can be transferred between the languages
that use it
> without bothering with the details of pronunciation. It will still
be
> recognizable and pronunciation can work itself out in the
linguistic free
> market/evolutionary battlefield.
>
> Craig



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Hi Craig
Sorry, I shouldn't have brought up the french pronunciation of "oui".
You are right. it is way off topic. I just wanted to make the point
that there are a lot of possible Dipthongs, must of which are quite
uncommon, but still occasionally found in Foreign words or names
borrowed into English.
It would be nice if Shaw Alphabet had a variable letter that
represented any foreign non-matching consonant, and another letter
which represented any foreign non-matching vowel sound just for those
occasional Foreign Loan words.

Let me
present a few minimal pairs
as I'd like to claim that this eu sound has its
own phonetic pronunciation. Does not mean it is necessarily deserving
of its own letter. I kind of like the idea of "you" and "eeuuh"
sharing the Shaw Yew letter.

Minimal pairs
1. you eeuuh (sound of disgust) common English interjection
(Stephanie on the Bob (Newhart Show) made constant use
of it.
2. fuel few
3. music mew
4. pew phew

I agree with your statement that Latin alphabet has the apparent
advantage of allowing words can be transferred between the languages
as long as you don't have to bother with the details of
pronunciation.
This is great if you are Deaf or if you only communicate through
writing for some other reason. Chinese also has a non-phonetic system
of writing that works great across Language barriers.
The problem is that most people learn to communicate vocally and than
attempt to transfer those skills to a written medium.
You used to have to be a Mandarin, a highly trained civil servant to
be literate in Chinese. Maybe 8 or 12 years education just to learn
to write your own language.

I would like a more Democratic writing system, where anyone, not just
professional students can learn to read, without a lot of
memorization. That's the direction, English in T.O. is going.
And our society and especially our computers can't handle mis-
spelling in T.O.
As a programmer, tell me what happens if you type 0 instead of Oh,
into a computer program or password prompt. Looks the same doesn't it.

Of course, English in T.O. has benefits. And since we've all already
learned it the hard way, why rock the boat.
Look around. In our modern education oriented word, with tons and
time and money spent on teaching, a lot of people have still missed
the boat as far as gaining effective literacy.
What do you tell them.
What do you tell their kids?

Regards, Paul V.

_________attached___________________________________



--- In shavian@..., Craig Butz <shavian@w...> wrote:
> In a previous episode, shavian@... said:
>
> > Hi Hugh
> > I consider it a great idea to consider the letter "Yew" as Phoneme
> > for both the "you" sound and the "eu" sound. Most people get them
> > confused in any case, and if they were both represented by the
same
> > letter, it wouldn't matter.
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
> Umm, I don't think I'm confusing them. They are just the same.
You,
> euchre, unit, eucharist all start with <you> according to AHD4.
Please
> present a minimal pair if anyone wants to claim that this eu sound
is its
> own phoneme deserving its own letter. As for oui, why would it be
spelled
> any differently than we? MOST sounds are pronounced slightly
differently in
> French. That's why French people have French accents. It would be
absurd
> to create an entire new set of letters to represent those different
> pronunciations in Shavian. Shavian is an English alphabet. If you
want to
> be able to represent the subtleties of every spoken language, by
all means,
> use the IPA.
>
> One strength of the Latin alphabet is that, in being non-phonetic,
or
> locally phonetic, words can be transferred between the languages
that use it
> without bothering with the details of pronunciation. It will still
be
> recognizable and pronunciation can work itself out in the
linguistic free
> market/evolutionary battlefield.
>
> Craig



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In Chinese books the names of individuals and places are not (unless
they are very famous and have a transcription) put into Chinese
characters but left in their original script (mostly roman and Cyrillic)
- this seems the sensible course to take.

So you would have a Shavian text with München, Milano, etc. in roman
script and Paris (when pronounced with the final "s") , Munich, Milan in
Shavian as these are names of places which have been anglicised.

Brussel/ Bruxelles is an interesting case as "Brussels" is the English
name which a lot of Belgians use as it has elements of both the Flemish
and French names.

John Warner


--
John Warner

john.warner@...




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I presume you mean foreign names of course.
Chinese handles Chinese names very well. In fact there are only about
50 common Chinese surnames.
Also Originally, foreign characters were not mixed with the Chinese
characters, but as you alude to, times have changed. The Government
is trying to get everyone to use a simplified set of Characters, to
make literacy more practical for everyone concerned. There is a lot
of popular resistance among the educated.

Regards, Paul V.

_________________attached__________________________________________

--- In shavian@..., John Warner <john.warner@l...> wrote:
> In Chinese books the names of individuals and places are not
(unless
> they are very famous and have a transcription) put into Chinese
> characters but left in their original script (mostly roman and
Cyrillic)
> - this seems the sensible course to take.
>
> So you would have a Shavian text with M?chen, Milano, etc. in roman
> script and Paris (when pronounced with the final "s") , Munich,
Milan in
> Shavian as these are names of places which have been anglicised.
>
> Brussel/ Bruxelles is an interesting case as "Brussels" is the
English
> name which a lot of Belgians use as it has elements of both the
Flemish
> and French names.
>
> John Warner
>
>
> --
> John Warner
>
> john.warner@l...



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Just so happens I have a spare copy of the Shaw alphabet Androcles and the Lion, the hardbound library edition, on considerably better paper than the paperback. The binding is in good condition. There are some handwritten notes on the flyleaves and on the blank page 6, but the text pages are unmarked except for a couple of library stamps in the margins. I bought this book over the Web several years ago from a dealer in Ireland, then found a second copy in a used book store, a recent discard from the public library of a rural county in Missouri.

First serious offer takes it. US $20 (about what I paid for it), I'll pay postage. I'll trust you to send me a check or money order after you receive the book. I need to get the book into the mail by early Tuesday, April 20th.

Bob Richmond
********************
Robert S. Richmond
344 Seven Oaks Drive
Knoxville TN 37922-3411 USA

________________________________

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How in Shavian would I represent "eel" as in heel, really, reel, eel?



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