Shavian eGroup Archive Browser
From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-28 16:37:51 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Other Alternate Alphabets
Toggle Shavian
Hi Scott
You are right. I did not specifically mean the Original Shavian
Alphabet designed for English. I was speaking generally. I meant
that they needed their own Phonetic Alphabet tailored to the
phonemes used by the Slavic languages, as there is a lot of word
borrowing from and to Russian. It could certainly use Shavian as a
Base, but I expect you would have add new letters for another 4 or 5
phonemes.
Similiary, The Roman Alphabet provides a fair to middling
represention of the Phonemes of the Romance Languages which were
derived from Vulgar Latin.
The Fruit doesn't fall far from the tree.
English with its Latin, French and Greek borrowing is another Kettle
of fish entirely, and has a greater need
of a Phonetic Alphabet(Shavian).
Regards, Paul V.
________________________attached_______________________________
--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Apr 28, 2004, at 00:35, Ethan wrote:
>
> > Ph. D. wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know about the other Slavic languages, but Serbian and
> >> Croatian are already pretty close to being phonemically spelled,
> >> so I don't think they need another alphabet. (One of their
popular
> >> authors of a couple hundred years ago always preached "spell
> >> as you speak and speak as you spell.")
> >>
> >> --Ph. D.
> >
> > I believe Russian could use some spelling reform. When a word
begins
> > with (transliterated) "gad", but is pronounced "had", or ends
in "go"
> > but is pronounced "vo", or ends with "chev" but is
pronounced "choff",
> > something needs to change! Also, "e" can be either "e" or "ye"
> > depending on context, apparently. Those are just a few
abnormalities
> > I'm aware of, but there are probably many more. I don't speak
Russian.
> >
> > --
> > ·ð`°ð`"ð`©ð`¯ - Ethan
> >
> Yes, Russian can use some spelling reform. The word for
milk has
> three "o" letters in it. Each one of them is pronounced
differently --
> "a", schwa and "o". However, Shavian probably will not be a good
use
> for Russian since there are some sounds in Russian that are not
present
> in English (Shavian or otherwise). I think you would have an
easier
> time with something like Bulgarian using Shavian instead.
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-28 16:43:26 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Other Alternate Alphabets
Toggle Shavian
Given the hatred generated between the Croats and the Serbs, they
might find it useful to have a culturally neutral alphabet that
would allow the simple phonetic spelling of all Slavic words.
Regards, Paul V.
--- In shavian@..., "Ph. D." <phild@a...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink skribis:
> >
> > There are a number of languages in and around USSR where the
> > Cyrillic Alphabet is fighting it out with the Roman Alphabet.
> > Neither have an overall advantage, although Cyrillic does a
little
> > more suited to pure Slavic Languages.
> > Besides Romanian/Moldovian, that Phil aluded to, there is
> > Serbian/Croatian, more or less the same language, but written in
a
> > different Alphabet, just to confuse the issue. As was pointed
out 6
> > additional letters are added to the Cyrillic for Serbian and
Roman
> > Alphabet is expanded to 30 for Croatian.
> > They are a good candidates for there own Shaw Alphabet to handle
the
> > mainstream Slavic Languages.
>
>
> Serbian and Croatian are indeed the same language, more or
> less, but the Serbs consider themselves Orthodox and always
> write their language in Cyrillic. Croats consider themselves
> Roman Catholic and always write their language in Latin script.
> In both cases, it's a matter of nationalism.
>
> My girlfriend's family is from Croatia. They came here when she
> was three years old. Her father told me that when he took some
> classes in Belgrade (Serbia), his teachers would not accept his
> work in Latin script, only Cyrillic. (Most Serbs and Croats grow
> up learning to read text in either alphabet.)
>
> Croatian uses the Latin alphabet with an additional letter, a D
with
> a bar through it. It also uses C with an acute; and C, S, and Z
each
> with a hachek (an upside-down circumflex). As previously
mentioned,
> Serbian adds six characters to Cyrillic (and doesn't use several
> others).
>
> I don't know about the other Slavic languages, but Serbian and
> Croatian are already pretty close to being phonemically spelled,
> so I don't think they need another alphabet. (One of their popular
> authors of a couple hundred years ago always preached "spell
> as you speak and speak as you spell.")
>
> --Ph. D.
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From: shavian@...
Date: 2004-04-28 23:39:53 #
Subject: [shavian] New file uploaded to shavian
Toggle Shavian
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the shavian
group.
File : /8/4pEptot.doc
Uploaded by : kfs111 <kfs111@...>
Description : 8-chan song poem
You can access this file at the URL
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/8/4pEptot.doc
To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
Regards,
kfs111 <kfs111@...>
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From: John Warner
Date: 2004-04-29 09:24:11 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Other Alternate Alphabets
Toggle Shavian
>
>I believe Russian could use some spelling reform. When a word begins
>with (transliterated) "gad", but is pronounced "had", or ends in "go"
>but is pronounced "vo", or ends with "chev" but is pronounced "choff",
>something needs to change! Also, "e" can be either "e" or "ye"
>depending on context, apparently. Those are just a few abnormalities
>I'm aware of, but there are probably many more. I don't speak Russian.
>
There are rules for the pronunciation of Russian words that makes it
more systematic.
The three "O" issue in words is as follows:
XOROshO - my transliteration of the Russian word for "okay" is
approximately pronounced "kick, ash, roar, ado, sure, on" i.e. three
sounds for the same symbol. There is one point though - the rule is
regular and rigorous. The symbol "O" has one sound for the position
before the stressed syllable, another on the stressed syllable and a
third in unstressed position. Though stress is a little irregular and
often marked in learning texts - knowing the stress pattern tells you
the pronunciation.
There are also two letters that contain an "e" sound. The backward E -
is the equivalent of the Shavian egg and a letter that looks like E in
the Latin script which is actually pronounced as an elision of "yea egg"
- if it has a diaeresis (American spelling dieresis) it is pronounced as
an elision of "yea on".
The last spelling reform in Russian was after the Russian Revolutions of
1917.
John Warner
--
John Warner
john.warner@...
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-29 15:30:45 #
Subject: [shavian] Another Alternate Alphabet to replace Cyrillic
Toggle Shavian
I believe the problem with Russian Spelling is not that the Cyrillic
Alphabet is inadequate for Slavic words. It is just that the rules of
pronunciation are fairly complex, and the rules assume the word is
pronounced according to a Slavic model. And as Russian is a world
language, there has been and continues to be extensive Non-Slavic
word borrowing (i.e. French) with some retention of the foreign
pronunciation.
A simpler auxillary system would provide many benefits, but obviously
they are not in as desperate a situation as English, where actual
Literacy is compromised and endangered if the current trends continue.
Regards, Paul V.
_________________________________attached________________
--- In shavian@..., John Warner <john.warner@l...> wrote:
> >
> >I believe Russian could use some spelling reform. When a word
begins
> >with (transliterated) "gad", but is pronounced "had", or ends
in "go"
> >but is pronounced "vo", or ends with "chev" but is
pronounced "choff",
> >something needs to change! Also, "e" can be either "e" or "ye"
> >depending on context, apparently. Those are just a few
abnormalities
> >I'm aware of, but there are probably many more. I don't speak
Russian.
> >
>
> There are rules for the pronunciation of Russian words that makes
it
> more systematic.
> The three "O" issue in words is as follows:
> XOROshO - my transliteration of the Russian word for "okay" is
> approximately pronounced "kick, ash, roar, ado, sure, on" i.e.
three
> sounds for the same symbol. There is one point though - the rule is
> regular and rigorous. The symbol "O" has one sound for the position
> before the stressed syllable, another on the stressed syllable and
a
> third in unstressed position. Though stress is a little irregular
and
> often marked in learning texts - knowing the stress pattern tells
you
> the pronunciation.
>
> There are also two letters that contain an "e" sound. The backward
E -
> is the equivalent of the Shavian egg and a letter that looks like E
in
> the Latin script which is actually pronounced as an elision of "yea
egg"
> - if it has a diaeresis (American spelling dieresis) it is
pronounced as
> an elision of "yea on".
>
> The last spelling reform in Russian was after the Russian
Revolutions of
> 1917.
>
> John Warner
> --
> John Warner
>
> john.warner@l...
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-30 15:24:31 #
Subject: [shavian] Bad News for Roman Alphabet Literacy in Canada
Toggle Shavian
A newspaper story in today's paper indicates only 3/4 of our Canadian
High School students every achieve Literacy. Even after having
succesfully passed thru 10 years of Grade School Education.
Ontario and Alberta require students to pass a simply literacy test
upon completion of Grade 10. The student must pass it before he
graduates from High School. Otherwise he doesn't get his Diploma.
Growing numbers of High School student can not demonstrate any
Reading ability. Teachers are complaining about these tests, saying
that not giving a student a High School Diploma unfairly handicaps
him in the workplace. But isn't illiteracy a handicap.
Not apparently
See attached news article. They actually consider 77% an
improvement!!!!
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I assume the results are the same or worse in the United States,
where grade inflation is rampant.
Are there any statistics out there about local literacy.
_______________attached___________________________________
Literacy test results improve.
Increases in all Grade 10 levels in Ontario Canada
KRISTIN RUSHOWY AND LOUISE BROWN
EDUCATION REPORTERS
Reported in www.thestar.com
More Grade 10 students have passed the province's mandatory literacy
test than ever before — but educators are still concerned about the
large numbers of students who fail each year, leaving them at risk of
never graduating.
After a disappointing dip in the 2002/03 school year, this year's
results were up in all categories:
* 77 per cent of the 129,000 students who wrote the test passed, up
from 72 per cent in 2002/03 and 75 per cent in 2001/03.
* 90 per cent of students in the academic stream were successful,
compared to 85 per cent in 2002/03.
* In the less rigorous applied stream, however, just 49 per cent of
students passed, although that was an increase over the 38 per cent
in 2002/03.
Education Minister Gerard Kennedy said he was pleased test scores
have rebounded, but still believes "students can do better — and this
test puts me on the hook to help these students to do the best they
can."
He said his government's plans to boost literacy in lower grades
should pay off in higher Grade 10 literacy scores.
Meanwhile, the province's testing body has been tracking this year's
graduating class — who wrote the test in the 2001/02 school year, and
are the first in Ontario history to have such a graduation
requirement. Almost 90 per cent are believed to have passed either
the test or a make-up course, said Marguerite Jackson, chief
executive officer of the Education Quality and Accountability Office
(EQAO).
However Annie Kidder, of advocacy group, "People for Education", said
that figure does not take into account the number of students who
have dropped out of school in frustration, thinking they will never
pass the test.
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> A simpler auxillary system would provide many benefits for Russian
> Language speakers, but obviously
> they are not in as desperate a situation as English, where actual
> Literacy is compromised and endangered if the current trends
> continue.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-30 15:24:31 #
Subject: [shavian] Bad News for Roman Alphabet Literacy in Canada
Toggle Shavian
A newspaper story in today's paper indicates only 3/4 of our Canadian
High School students every achieve Literacy. Even after having
succesfully passed thru 10 years of Grade School Education.
Ontario and Alberta require students to pass a simply literacy test
upon completion of Grade 10. The student must pass it before he
graduates from High School. Otherwise he doesn't get his Diploma.
Growing numbers of High School student can not demonstrate any
Reading ability. Teachers are complaining about these tests, saying
that not giving a student a High School Diploma unfairly handicaps
him in the workplace. But isn't illiteracy a handicap.
Not apparently
See attached news article. They actually consider 77% an
improvement!!!!
Regards, Paul V.
P.S. I assume the results are the same or worse in the United States,
where grade inflation is rampant.
Are there any statistics out there about local literacy.
_______________attached___________________________________
Literacy test results improve.
Increases in all Grade 10 levels in Ontario Canada
KRISTIN RUSHOWY AND LOUISE BROWN
EDUCATION REPORTERS
Reported in www.thestar.com
More Grade 10 students have passed the province's mandatory literacy
test than ever before — but educators are still concerned about the
large numbers of students who fail each year, leaving them at risk of
never graduating.
After a disappointing dip in the 2002/03 school year, this year's
results were up in all categories:
* 77 per cent of the 129,000 students who wrote the test passed, up
from 72 per cent in 2002/03 and 75 per cent in 2001/03.
* 90 per cent of students in the academic stream were successful,
compared to 85 per cent in 2002/03.
* In the less rigorous applied stream, however, just 49 per cent of
students passed, although that was an increase over the 38 per cent
in 2002/03.
Education Minister Gerard Kennedy said he was pleased test scores
have rebounded, but still believes "students can do better — and this
test puts me on the hook to help these students to do the best they
can."
He said his government's plans to boost literacy in lower grades
should pay off in higher Grade 10 literacy scores.
Meanwhile, the province's testing body has been tracking this year's
graduating class — who wrote the test in the 2001/02 school year, and
are the first in Ontario history to have such a graduation
requirement. Almost 90 per cent are believed to have passed either
the test or a make-up course, said Marguerite Jackson, chief
executive officer of the Education Quality and Accountability Office
(EQAO).
However Annie Kidder, of advocacy group, "People for Education", said
that figure does not take into account the number of students who
have dropped out of school in frustration, thinking they will never
pass the test.
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
> A simpler auxillary system would provide many benefits for Russian
> Language speakers, but obviously
> they are not in as desperate a situation as English, where actual
> Literacy is compromised and endangered if the current trends
> continue.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-30 15:26:45 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Toggle Shavian
Hi Bob
Did you receive the Money order, yet? I hope I put enough postage on
the letter.
Regards, Paul V.
_________________________attached________________
--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> Hi Paul Vandenbrink!
>
> Glad you got the book and were pleased with it.
>
> Surely it would be possible for our group to republish it - wonder
if we
> could do it with one of those online publishing operations that
manufacture books
> on demand.
>
> Bob Richmond
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-04-30 16:29:41 #
Subject: [shavian] T.O. of English
Toggle Shavian
There are a few cases in T.O. where phonetic spelling reasserted
itself. But see how confusing it can become. Even the Spell checker
gets confused.
"practise" versus "a practice".
In US spelling it's always "practice". The British spell
it "practice" if it's the noun and "practise" if it's the verb.
Regards, Paul V.
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From: Ethan
Date: 2004-04-30 19:25:26 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Bad News for Roman Alphabet Literacy in Canada
Toggle Shavian
paul vandenbrink wrote:
> A newspaper story in today's paper indicates only 3/4 of our Canadian
> High School students every achieve Literacy. Even after having
> succesfully passed thru 10 years of Grade School Education.
> Ontario and Alberta require students to pass a simply literacy test
> upon completion of Grade 10. The student must pass it before he
> graduates from High School. Otherwise he doesn't get his Diploma.
> Growing numbers of High School student can not demonstrate any
> Reading ability. Teachers are complaining about these tests, saying
> that not giving a student a High School Diploma unfairly handicaps
> him in the workplace. But isn't illiteracy a handicap.
> Not apparently
> See attached news article. They actually consider 77% an
> improvement!!!!
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> P.S. I assume the results are the same or worse in the United States,
> where grade inflation is rampant.
> Are there any statistics out there about local literacy.
I don't know the statistics off hand, but they aren't too good. Yes,
there is a lot of grade inflation - "grading on the curve" they call it.
The best student in the class gets an A, all others are graded
accordingly. Many highschool graduates can't read. It's not entirely
due to the irregularity of English spelling - literacy rates were much
higher not that many years ago, while the language has changed little in
that time. The problem seems to stem from various attempts to simplify
the teaching of reading. But there's no way around the complex task of
teaching the alphabet, followed by all the many rules of pronunciation
and spelling. That is, assuming you're teaching TO. With Shavian, you
just teach the alphabet.
--
·???????? - Ethan
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