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Hi Guys & Star

I am really glad to hear that Kingsley Read did in fact provide real
names for the Shavian Letters and provided a sequence for the
Alphabet.

As I mentioned before, the previously assigned names of the SHAVIAN
Letters leave
a lot to be desired. The names as such provided with the
introduction to Shaw in Androcles look more like sample words, rather
than real Names. Who would really name a letter "Dead" or "Err"
or "ha-ha". So this newly discovered list provides us with a more
realistic starting point. The Names are good for the Consonant Tall,
Deep and Short, but the Vowel Names still seem to leave a lot to be
desired.
They are incomplete for one thing. They are missing 5 letters.
(array, ear, yew, ah and Or)

I can't believe that Kingsley considered these 5 Vowel sounds as
Compounds, made up of two letters. Maybe Yew, but yew is not a simple
letter. See my next post.
The other letter are a bit problematical in an RP accent, but he kept
most of them in Quickscript.
For example Array is pronounced the sames Ado in RP.
Anyway, the list may not have been finalized or fully thought out at
the time of the Publishing of Androcles.

Any other theories that we can put under Occam's Razor.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. In every life a little rain has to fall.


--- In shavian@..., "shavianstar" <shavianstar@y...>
wrote:
> Hey Everyone,
> I got my hands on a newspaper from 1965 written in Shavian.
Kingsley
> Read, the publisher, gave the following letter names: (he did not
> use the names that we do now..)
>
> Tall:
> Pea (peep)
> Tea (tot)
> Key (kick)
> Fee (fee)
> THaw (thigh)
> See (so)
> SHe (sure)
> CHeer (church)
> Ye (yea)
> i-NG (hung)
>
> Deep:
> Bay (bib)
> Day (dead)
> Gay (gag)
> Vie (vow)
> THey (they)
> Zoo (zoo)
> ZHay (measure)
> Jay (judge)
> Way (woe)
> Hay (ha-ha)
>
> Short:
> Lee (loll) Ray (roar)
> Me (mime) Nay (none)
>
>
>
> Vowels:
> It(it) Ease (eat)
> Egg(egg) Ace (age)
> At (ash) Ice (ice)
> Ago (ado) Us (up)
> Hot(on) Owe (oak)
> Foot (wool) OOze (ooze)
> OUt (out) boy (oil)
> Are (are) awe (Awe)
> Air (air) urge (urge)
> EAr (ian)

array, ear and yew. ah and Or
>




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in ''human'', ''huge'', ''humor'', ''humongus'' etc. ''A
I've always wondered about some sounds that look like they were
jammed into the Un=voiced position even though they are both normally
pronounced as voiced. For example, both Woe and Yea are normally
pronounced as voiced. Although w does have an unvoiced variant "wh".

But I looked at some words, and there is an un-voiced y sound but
surprise surprise, it only occurs in words where the y sound is
represented by "yew".

For example, the
voiceless ''y'' used by most people in words
like ''human'', ''huge'', ''humor'', ''humongus'' etc.
You could use Hey + Yea to represent these words, as we do with
the "wh" sound.
I pronounce the above words with an unvoiced "y", but I don't see why
we need to distinguish the unvoiced Y sound. There are no minimal
pairs, so it can be considered as 1 phoneme. It is not like "w" and
the voiceless "wh" where there are some minimal pairs.

Especially if you consider that the Shavian Alphabet gets around this
anomoly, by having a single additional letter "yew". In my mind it
can be expanded to cover the voiced yu, the unvoiced "yu" described
above, and the Dipthong "eu".

yu (voiced) Union, User, You, Ukelele
yu (unvoiced) human, huge, humor, humongus, cute
eu (Dipthong) Euchre, Beautiful, few, newt, mew, phew

This throws all are oddballs (anomalies) into one basket.

Comments?

Regards to one and all, Paul V.





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>
> yu (voiced) Union, User, You, Ukelele
> yu (unvoiced) human, huge, humor, humongus, cute
> eu (Dipthong) Euchre, Beautiful, few, newt, mew, phew
>
> This throws all our oddballs (anomalies) into one basket.

Paul,

I'm not sure about your pronunciation of the "unvoiced yu" since you
included cute in your unvoiced list. Maybe I'm the oddball here in that
Human huge, humor and humongus all start with an /h/ sound, not the
vowel.

--Star

=====
It's a knit one, purl two,
What's a doozer gonna do, with a gol-darn ball of yarn
It's a stitch three, drop four
Pitch that knittin' out the door, right now! --Doozer Knitting Song



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>
> yu (voiced) Union, User, You, Ukelele
> yu (unvoiced) human, huge, humor, humongus, cute
> eu (Dipthong) Euchre, Beautiful, few, newt, mew, phew
>
> This throws all our oddballs (anomalies) into one basket.

Paul,

I'm not sure about your pronunciation of the "unvoiced yu" since you
included cute in your unvoiced list. Maybe I'm the oddball here in that
Human huge, humor and humongus all start with an /h/ sound, not the
vowel.

--Star

=====
It's a knit one, purl two,
What's a doozer gonna do, with a gol-darn ball of yarn
It's a stitch three, drop four
Pitch that knittin' out the door, right now! --Doozer Knitting Song



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The Shaw-Script quarterly I found was in the University of Michigan
Graduate Library. Getting a hold of it was no picnic, I found some
vague references to it while searching the library database. (I was
actually looking for Androcles the Lion)The eight volumes are stored
in separate facility so I had to make a request. I have volume 3
right now, and I will have to request later volumes. Each volume has
about 5 publications, about 15 pages each. My thought is that Read
may have revised the alphabet names in the later editions.
I will see what I can get a hold of.

-Nick

P.S. Shavian is sometimes referred to as the "Shaw Alphabet", so if
you do any searching of your own, it may be under that name.



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Hi Star
The h is pronounced in the words, human, huge, humor,humongus, but
there is also a yu sound after the h sound. Don't you hear it?
When you talk to Hugh, do you say Who. Minimal pair.

Regards, Paul V.

__________________________attached_____________

--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > yu (voiced) Union, User, You, Ukelele
> > yu (unvoiced) human, huge, humor, humongus, cute
> > eu (Dipthong) Euchre, Beautiful, few, newt, mew, phew
> >
> > This throws all our oddballs (anomalies) into one basket.
>
> Paul,
>
> I'm not sure about your pronunciation of the "unvoiced yu" since you
> included cute in your unvoiced list. Maybe I'm the oddball here in
that
> Human huge, humor and humongus all start with an /h/ sound, not the
> vowel.
>
> --Star
>
> =====
> It's a knit one, purl two,
> What's a doozer gonna do, with a gol-darn ball of yarn
> It's a stitch three, drop four
> Pitch that knittin' out the door, right now! --Doozer Knitting
Song
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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Hi Star
The h is pronounced in the words, human, huge, humor,humongus, but
there is also a yu sound after the h sound. Don't you hear it?
When you talk to Hugh, do you say Who. Minimal pair.

Regards, Paul V.

__________________________attached_____________

--- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > yu (voiced) Union, User, You, Ukelele
> > yu (unvoiced) human, huge, humor, humongus, cute
> > eu (Dipthong) Euchre, Beautiful, few, newt, mew, phew
> >
> > This throws all our oddballs (anomalies) into one basket.
>
> Paul,
>
> I'm not sure about your pronunciation of the "unvoiced yu" since you
> included cute in your unvoiced list. Maybe I'm the oddball here in
that
> Human huge, humor and humongus all start with an /h/ sound, not the
> vowel.
>
> --Star
>
> =====
> It's a knit one, purl two,
> What's a doozer gonna do, with a gol-darn ball of yarn
> It's a stitch three, drop four
> Pitch that knittin' out the door, right now! --Doozer Knitting
Song
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail



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--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Star
> The h is pronounced in the words, human, huge, humor,humongus, but
> there is also a yu sound after the h sound. Don't you hear it?
> When you talk to Hugh, do you say Who. Minimal pair.
>
> Regards, Paul V.

Okay, that's not in dispute. I misunderstood something that was said,
apparently regarding the h+yew sound... my bad. ;)

--Star

=====
It's a knit one, purl two,
What's a doozer gonna do, with a gol-darn ball of yarn
It's a stitch three, drop four
Pitch that knittin' out the door, right now! --Doozer Knitting Song



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--- In shavian@..., "tithhmi" <tithhmi@y...> wrote:
> Does anyone want me to transcript the Guttenburg.net text?

Actually, I've thought of transcribing it myself, but I don't really have the time. I'll be
glad to help proof, though.

Regards,
Joe



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We absolutely should not retranscribe Androcles. I hate to use the
word "authoritative" but the original Androcles is the only example we
have of how sounds are intended to be represented in this alphabet.

On Jun 20, 2004, at 9:26 AM, shavian@... wrote:
>
> Actually, I've thought of transcribing it myself, but I don't really
> have the time. I'll be
> glad to help proof, though.



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