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Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
> Personally, I hate imperial units and try my honest best to avoid them
> wherever possible. The main reason I think people resist the change to
> metric is because they perceive it as "big brother Europe" imposing its
> rules on us poor besieged Brits.
>
> Hugh B

One of my pet peeves is when anybody (government or otherwise) tries to
impose foreign measurements on us. The system used here in the US is
called Avoirdupoids. It is similar to the British imperial system, but
is standardized. Ounces, pounds (16 oz), tons (2000 lbs); fluid ounces,
pints (16 fl oz), quarts (2 pints), gallons (4 quarts); inches, feet (12
in), yards (3 ft), miles (5280 ft). No rule exceptions that I'm aware
of. Our system works, and everybody is familiar with it. It's based on
human measurements, not arbitrary ones, and has its roots in the ancient
Greek and Roman systems. The Metric system grew out of the French
revolution, and was part of an effort to destroy all past standards,
regardless of whether or not there was a reason for the old standard.
It is based on arbitrary standards, which is fine for scientific
purposes. I use it myself in electronics and other things. Yet for
everyday use, I'm much more comfortable using our American system. Not
to mention all the standards which are based on our system, and which
are not easy to change, nor would such change be prudent. In Canada
they suffered such things as crashed or diverted airplanes due to fuel
conversion mistakes!

> Weren't there some news reports last year about
> shopkeepers in the UK being fined for selling vegetables
> by the pound instead of kilogram?
>
> --Ph. D.

That's the other thing! Metric = government intrusion! Value your
freedom? Use American measurements! :-)

--
·???????? - Ethan


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Aughh!! This thread has finally been yanked back on-topic, but the
subject line is now about the metric system and much of the OT
commentary from the earlier part of the thread is still dangling from
the bottom of messages people are sending out! Please watch/change
subject lines and trim comments, folks.

Thanks,
Bob

Star Raven (and Hugh) incurred the wrath of Bob on Sep 29, by saying

>
>I'm all for it! And Shaw Alphabet is fine with me.
>
>--Star
>
>--- Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:
>
>> Yes, changing groups... I agree that YahooGroups is OK for our
>> purpose. So
>> all I have to do, if the group is OK with it, is start up a fresh
>> list
>> called ShawAlphabet (or whatever is preferred) and transfer all the
>> vault
>> files etc to it. I don't think we can transfer archived messages from
>> group
>> to group but I will look into the possibility.
>>
>> Regards
>> Hugh B
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Star Raven [mailto:celestraof12worlds@...]
>> > Sent: 29 September 2004 13:03
>> > To: shavian@...
>> > Subject: Re: [shavian] The Pain of going Metric
>> >
>> >
>> > The question is, why didn't they make one atmosphere at however
>> many
>> > pascals as the base? I mean, it wouldn't kill them.
>> >
>> > Now, about changing groups...
>> > --Star
>> >
>> > --- Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:52:55 +0100, Hugh Birkenhead
>> > > <mixsynth@...> wrote:
>> > > > What's wrong with working in megapascals?
>> > >
>> > > Nothing in principle, but some people use hectopascals instead -
>> so
>> > > they can pretend to use SI units when it's simply cleverly
>> disguised
>> > > millibars (non-SI unit).
>> > >

--
Cheers,
Bob Schmertz


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And do you know how they came up with the metre? it's something to do
with the circumferance of the earth. Heck, I can measure a yard from my
nose to the tips of my fingers, and three inches across my hands. Sure
we don't have millipounds or kiloinches, but for that I have one word:
Tradition!

I know, I know, I've watched fiddler on the roof too many times.
--Star

=====
http://www.photobucket.com/albums/v382/StarRaven

Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!



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On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT), Star Raven
<celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
> And do you know how they came up with the metre? it's something to do
> with the circumferance of the earth.

*nods* I believe a metre was intended to be 1/10'000'000th of the
distance from the North Pole to the Equator, measured through Paris.
(i.e. the Earth is assumed to have a circumference of 40'000 km.)

And it's not that far off, but it's not exact, either.

Nautical miles are also linked to the circumference of the earth.

Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>


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Oh God.... what have we started... :P

> One of my pet peeves is when anybody (government or otherwise) tries to
> impose foreign measurements on us. The system used here in the US is
> called Avoirdupoids. It is similar to the British imperial system, but
> is standardized. Ounces, pounds (16 oz), tons (2000 lbs); fluid ounces,
> pints (16 fl oz), quarts (2 pints), gallons (4 quarts); inches, feet (12
> in), yards (3 ft), miles (5280 ft). No rule exceptions that I'm aware
> of. Our system works, and everybody is familiar with it. It's based on
> human measurements, not arbitrary ones, and has its roots in the ancient
> Greek and Roman systems. The Metric system grew out of the French
> revolution, and was part of an effort to destroy all past standards,
> regardless of whether or not there was a reason for the old standard.
> It is based on arbitrary standards, which is fine for scientific
> purposes. I use it myself in electronics and other things. Yet for
> everyday use, I'm much more comfortable using our American system. Not
> to mention all the standards which are based on our system, and which
> are not easy to change, nor would such change be prudent. In Canada
> they suffered such things as crashed or diverted airplanes due to fuel
> conversion mistakes!

It's, well, irrevelent if the imperial system is based upon human units, or
is linked to the Roman system, or whatever – it has been rendered obsolete
by 99% of the world. The United States, the UK and Burma (I believe) are the
only Nations still to cling to it, and even then, the UK and US imperial
standards are different to each other! This doesn't help trade in the
slightest.

> > Weren't there some news reports last year about
> > shopkeepers in the UK being fined for selling vegetables
> > by the pound instead of kilogram?
> >
> > --Ph. D.
>
> That's the other thing! Metric = government intrusion! Value your
> freedom? Use American measurements! :-)

It's nothing to do with freedom! If you're SENSIBLE and think on an
international level, you'll bite the bullet and switch to metric!

> --
> ·???????? - Ethan

Hugh B


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I think I caused all this. ¬_¬

By the way, the meter has been redefined based on the frequency of
light produced by radon, or something. And everything else (for the
most part) is based on the meter. The idea is to make it possible
to recalculate every metric measure with just the rules and
guidelines for basing units on other units, anywhere, anytime, even
if not on Earth.

And I'm ready to move whenever everybody else is.

--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> Oh God.... what have we started... :P



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The metric system (more formally now the Systeme Internationale)has replaced indigenous systems of measurement in just about every country except Brunei, Liberia, Myanmar (which used to be Burma), North Yemen, South Yemen, and the United States of America.

In laboratory medicine(I'm a pathologist, I should explain) S.I. molar units (millimoles per litre) for analytes (things getting measured) in blood and other body fluids - have replaced metric mass units (like milligrams per decilitre) in just about every country except... you guessed it... the USA.

I think these facts are a shocking indictment of American innumeracy and of our low level of mathematical education. What troubles me is that my fellow physicians have done no better with this challenge than have other Americans.

When it was proposed about thirty years ago that the USA make the shift, the media deluged us with four-significant-figure conversion tables, with no indication of how one might learn to make the change. For us older folks, it means learning a lot of quick-and-dirty conversion procedures, like 2.2 lb in a kilogram or 1.6 kilometres in a mile. (I still can't do people's heights and weights in metric, and I just learned what the heck a hellare - I mean what the hell a hectare - is.)

The metre and the kilogram were originally defined by physical objects. The physical metre standard has long since been replaced by an atomic standard, but the kilogram is still defined by a physical object (see a review of this problem in Science - the AAAS journal - in the last couple of months).

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee and Gastonia, North Carolina, USA


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--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> When it was proposed about thirty years ago that the USA make the
shift, the media deluged us with four-significant-figure conversion
tables, with no indication of how one might learn to make the
change. For us older folks, it means learning a lot of quick-and-
dirty conversion procedures, like 2.2 lb in a kilogram or 1.6
kilometres in a mile. (I still can't do people's heights and weights
in metric, and I just learned what the heck a hellare - I mean what
the hell a hectare - is.)

Conversion tables . . . that's the way to get people to want to
learn it.

> The metre and the kilogram were originally defined by physical
objects. The physical metre standard has long since been replaced by
an atomic standard, but the kilogram is still defined by a physical
object (see a review of this problem in Science - the AAAS journal -
in the last couple of months).

Last I heard, kilograms are based on the mass of water. Actually, I
believe a kg is the mass of a liter, or a cubic decimeter, of
water. You probably shouldn't depend on that, though. I've been
been wrong at least a couple times in the past. ^_^;

In any case, I think the problems with converting to metric are of
the same kind as those with converting to Shavian. The only thing
we can do right no is use both where they're appropriate.



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Hi Everybody

I notice that Esperanto has a set of 10 graded lessons each about one
page long with a short quiz at the end, which they distribute to
interested learners. The student mails back the completed lesson.
Someone in the group marks it, adds in corrections, and sends it back
to the student with the next lesson.
For instance, the first lesson could be just introducing a practical
working subset of the most common letters Shavian Alphabet. Say, the
16 most commonly used consonants and the 5 soft vowels, Ado, Ash, On,
Egg and If.
For the initial 16 Consonants, I would skip the 4 pairs, th/th,
sure/measure, hung/ha-ha and church/judge.
All of these Shaw letters except Ado, have a Roman Alphabet
equivalent, which would help with the transliterations. There would
be a one to one relationship.

Anyone else willing to make up a short story of about 10 sentences
that only uses these 21 Shaw letters?


Regards, Paul V.


P.S. As for the Metric question, coming from Canada where we made the
switch, I am frankly surprised that anybody wants to retain 2 or even
3 incompatible systems of measuring. It is a big expense having 2 of
everything, or even to have to cut or grind things down to fit. I
thought
that most people realized the benefits of a standard set of sizes,
but were hesitant to change just because it was impossible or
impractical for them to make the switchover to a new standard. Leave
it for the next generation, I guess.

--- In shavian@..., "Joe" <allegrox_2000@y...> wrote:
>
> In any case, I think the problems with converting to metric are of
> the same kind as those with converting to Shavian. The only thing
> we can do right no is use both where they're appropriate.





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Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

> It's nothing to do with freedom! If you're SENSIBLE and think on an
> international level, you'll bite the bullet and switch to metric!

I'm not sensible, I guess, preferring to think of myself as an American
and not an "internationalist". I use our system of measurements because
I am free to do so, unlike so many people who are literally forced to
use the Systèm Internationale, or be found in violation of the law. I
also use it because it is the standard here, and we are not like the
rest of the world - we are unique as a nation.
--
·???????? - Ethan


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