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From: Paige Gabhart
Date: 2004-08-13 23:25:52 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
paul vandenbrink wrote:

> I was thinking of Stenographers, just as an example. They normally
> use a little stenotype machine or a little modified computer for
> their shorthand reporting (transcribing),
> but they probably need a way of writing out an unrecognisable word
> Phonetically until they puzzle it out.

I don't know that this is true. In my experience in depositions,
stenographers almost never have to stop the flow of question and answer,
and they make very few mistakes. In Indiana in the courts I practice
in, stenographers are no longer used. There is a clerk who insures that
the tape (cassette) machine is working properly. If something breaks,
the action stops until the tape is working again. Transcripts are
prepared by a clerk who listens to the tape recorded during the trial or
hearing.

> I believe court-room stenographers need almost as much time to
> prepare a cleartext version of their report on what was said, as it
> takes to punch out the Shorthand version.
> Nowadays they have a lot software support, but I dont think the
> court allows direct sound recording?

I believe the new software systems connected to stenographic machines
automatically transcribe the stenographic text into clear text with
minimal cleanup on the part of the stenographer.

> As for teaching a child the Shaw Alphabet to a kid. I think it
> really depends on the kid and whether you have a window of
> opportunity before he starts regular Public school (Kindergarden).
> Just because T.O. is inconsistent and difficult for anyone to
> memorise, it doesn't mean we should withhold knowledge about Shavian
> which doesn't have these stumbling blocks. It is sometimes useful
> for the kids to know a bit a bit about different Alphabets, even
> though they will mostly be developing their T.O. spelling skills.
>
> I guess I would also be a little fearful about a teachers reaction
> to my child telling him he can already read and write, but in
> Shavian.

If it is a public school teacher, you are probably correct to fear their
reaction. Such teachers are generally primarily concerned about
insuring that they maintain the monopoly they have over teaching the
young in our society than incorporating creative solutions to current
problems.

> Teacher's are not notably open-minded in matters of their own field
> of education (speciality).
>
>
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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-08-15 17:47:51 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
Hi Paige

Thanks for your comments.
You are right about stenographers. They must obviously incorporate a
method of writing out an unrecognisable word using the Stenograph
machine until they can puzzle it out later. Some told me the the
Stenograph machine just writes out 16 symbols, representing the most
sounds in a word. It is like a 16 letter phonetic Alphabet.
The question becomes moot in anycase if stenography is being
replaced by tape-recording.

I am glad that you recognise as well as myself, that is only the
rarest of teachers, that would be supportive of using a phonetic
based alphabet to enable the poor students to develop some level of
literacy. As well as the inate conservatism of a English Teacher
describe below, Teachers are also tr[paly constrained by the
Teaching Associations, the Principals and the Parents ignorance and
fear of the children getting a sub-standard education.

Practically, Home Schooling is probably the only way a Parent can
get his children taught in Shavian.

So we are back to the beginning. We have to teach indvidually
whenever we can find a student.

Regards, Paul V.

____________________attached_____________________________


--- In shavian@..., Paige Gabhart <pgabhart@a...> wrote:
>>
> I don't know that this is true. In my experience in depositions,
> stenographers almost never have to stop the flow of question and
answer,
> and they make very few mistakes. In Indiana in the courts I
practice
> in, stenographers are no longer used. There is a clerk who
insures that
> the tape (cassette) machine is working properly. If something
breaks,
> the action stops until the tape is working again. Transcripts are
> prepared by a clerk who listens to the tape recorded during the
trial or
> hearing.
>
> I believe the new software systems connected to stenographic
machines
> automatically transcribe the stenographic text into clear text
with
> minimal cleanup on the part of the stenographer.
>
>
> If it is a public school teacher, you are probably correct to fear
their
> reaction. Such teachers are generally primarily concerned about
> insuring that they maintain the monopoly they have over teaching
the
> young in our society than incorporating creative solutions to
current
> problems.
>
> > Teacher's are not notably open-minded in matters of their own
field of education (speciality).




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From: Paige Gabhart
Date: 2004-08-15 23:31:02 #
Subject: RE: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
-----Original Message-----
From: paul vandenbrink [mailto:pvandenbrink@...]



You are right about stenographers. They must obviously incorporate a
method of writing out an unrecognisable word using the Stenograph
machine until they can puzzle it out later. Some told me the the
Stenograph machine just writes out 16 symbols, representing the most
sounds in a word. It is like a 16 letter phonetic Alphabet.

I do not believe it is a 16 letter phonetic alphabet. My understanding of the stenographic machine is limited, but what I am aware of is that unlike keyboards on computers or typewriters, a stenographer can type more than one letter at a time. There may be sixteen keys -- 2 for each of the 8 fingers. I am not sure if the thumbs are used.

Sometimes a letter just stands for that letter, but when 2 keys are hit at once, there is an encoding system, which tells the stenographer to insert a different letter at that point. Thus, each finger only has to hit its home key or the key directly above it in the next row. This accounts for the peculiar wave-like motion of their hands because both hands frequently move at the same time. You may see this peculiar motion if you happen to see an old movie with a court scene where the court reporter is visible. I think they write a word they are unfamiliar with phonetically using standard T.O. conventions. They may then attempt to look it up later while working on the transcript. I have received depositions with an occasional misspelling – maybe one or two obscure words in a 100 page transcript.

It would be interesting to learn more about how it works. I can tell you that a good court reporter is astonishing. They can take down conversational speed dialogue, with the person’s name who is speaking indicated, with interjections by others (with the interruptor’s name indicated) and mistakes were very rare. For most of us, we would have trouble hearing two people at once, much less getting down what both people said, and marking who said what! It takes 18 months to gain the necessary skill and speed to begin to function as a court reporter, and I am sure that the good ones improve with experience. It obviously takes a lot of concentration to get down everything said in a courtroom for two or three hours before the judge halts the proceedings for a break.


Practically, Home Schooling is probably the only way a Parent can
get his children taught in Shavian.

It is like the process of building the network of telephones. Who wanted one when nobody else had one? I have pictured a telephone salesman at the end of the 19th century:

Salesman: “Madam, this is the coming thing. Everyone in River City will have one by next year.”
Prospect: “It sounds exciting. Who has one now?”
S: “Uhh… Well, the druggist said he might consider getting one if Dr. Jones did.”
P: “Maybe I’ll just wait a little. (she promptly shuts the door leaving the sales man standing on the porch.)

No doubt this isn’t exactly how this developed, but I think you can see the problem.

Most people have this idea that learning to read is really hard for a lot of people. Virtually nobody understands that a big part of the problem is the alphabet rather than the language. And teachers don’t understand it either because it was never explained to them when they were in school studying to become teachers, or, as they prefer, educators. So I would anticipate that it would be quite difficult to convince a parent home-schooling his child that they should spend time learning to read using an alternative alphabet. The parent knows the child has to learn T.O. and there is so much else to learn as well, how can he devote his child’s time to learning something which virtually know one else knows? Obviously, we would have to do an excellent job convincing the parent that the student would receive some benefit from learning the Read alphabet.

Should we consider the possibility of producing beginning texts and workbooks in Read? It would be a lot of work. I don’t mean to sound negative, but there are some rather large hurdles to overcome.

Paige



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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
Date: 2004-08-16 03:34:26 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
If we're thinking of the same machine, it was called Stenotype, not Stenograph. It was widely used by court reporters - I don't know whether it's still in use anywhere or not. The machines were quite silent, and their output was print on a long paper tape which was saved as a record of the trial. The reporter then produced the actual court record from the Stenotype tape. The transcriptionist didn't have to be the same person as the original Stenotype operator, a great advantage over Gregg shorthand which could only be transcribed by the person who took the notes. Many Stenotype operators were blind.

Google it. There's a picture of the keyboard at
http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/~holub/Keyboard.htm
- apparently they're still in use somewhere.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

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From: RSRICHMOND@aol.com
Date: 2004-08-16 03:34:26 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
If we're thinking of the same machine, it was called Stenotype, not Stenograph. It was widely used by court reporters - I don't know whether it's still in use anywhere or not. The machines were quite silent, and their output was print on a long paper tape which was saved as a record of the trial. The reporter then produced the actual court record from the Stenotype tape. The transcriptionist didn't have to be the same person as the original Stenotype operator, a great advantage over Gregg shorthand which could only be transcribed by the person who took the notes. Many Stenotype operators were blind.

Google it. There's a picture of the keyboard at
http://www.marin.cc.ca.us/~holub/Keyboard.htm
- apparently they're still in use somewhere.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC

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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-08-16 17:17:17 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
Stenotype Machines seem to be still the main tool used by the Court
Recorder according to what I see on the Internet, although voice
transcription system as are being developed and tested as we speak.

We need to differentiate between the use of pen shorthand, or
stenography, and machine shorthand, or stenotype. The tool used
to write the shorthand transcription determines what it is called.
When we write in Shavian with a pen it is Stenography, and when we
type it in the computer it is Stenotype.

Stenotype Machines have improved since I last looked. They have many
more keys.
So now the number of keys on a typical Stenotype Machine is 24.
There are 5x2 keys for the right hand, 5x2 Keys for the left hand.
And 2 keys for each thumb. 24 Keys altogether. The difference
between the stenotype keyboard and the computer keyboard is obvious.
On the stenotype keyboard, one is able to press multiple keys at the
same time, thus allowing the stenotypist to create multiple sound
combinations(not letters) with each stroke. The prominent and
common sounds of a language will then dictate the position of the
keys and the combinations of the keys when creating a keyboard.
The beginning consonant sounds are written with the left hand, the
ending consonant sounds with the right hand and the vowels with the
thumbs. Since the "S" sound is the most frequent beginning and
ending sound in many languages, it is given the first and last
position on the standard stenotype keyboard. The "T" sound is the
next most frequent and, therefore, has the second position, and so
on. Since each key can represent more than one sound in combination
with other keys, there is usually no marking (letters) on the keys.
The Stenotypist is writing a full word or syllable with each
movement of his hands. The writing system seems to have evolved with
time to produce optimum high speed results, as opposed to the
conservatism of our regular typewriting. They seem to have beat the
Dvorak Keyboard, hands down.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> If we're thinking of the same machine, it was called Stenotype,
not Stenograph. It was widely used by court reporters - I don't know
whether it's still in
use anywhere or not. The machines were quite silent, and their
output was
> print on a long paper tape which was saved as a record of the
trial. The reporter
> then produced the actual court record from the Stenotype tape. The
> transcriptionist didn't have to be the same person as the original
Stenotype operator, a
> great advantage over Gregg shorthand which could only be
transcribed by the
> person who took the notes. Many Stenotype operators were blind.
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC



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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-08-16 17:17:17 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
Stenotype Machines seem to be still the main tool used by the Court
Recorder according to what I see on the Internet, although voice
transcription system as are being developed and tested as we speak.

We need to differentiate between the use of pen shorthand, or
stenography, and machine shorthand, or stenotype. The tool used
to write the shorthand transcription determines what it is called.
When we write in Shavian with a pen it is Stenography, and when we
type it in the computer it is Stenotype.

Stenotype Machines have improved since I last looked. They have many
more keys.
So now the number of keys on a typical Stenotype Machine is 24.
There are 5x2 keys for the right hand, 5x2 Keys for the left hand.
And 2 keys for each thumb. 24 Keys altogether. The difference
between the stenotype keyboard and the computer keyboard is obvious.
On the stenotype keyboard, one is able to press multiple keys at the
same time, thus allowing the stenotypist to create multiple sound
combinations(not letters) with each stroke. The prominent and
common sounds of a language will then dictate the position of the
keys and the combinations of the keys when creating a keyboard.
The beginning consonant sounds are written with the left hand, the
ending consonant sounds with the right hand and the vowels with the
thumbs. Since the "S" sound is the most frequent beginning and
ending sound in many languages, it is given the first and last
position on the standard stenotype keyboard. The "T" sound is the
next most frequent and, therefore, has the second position, and so
on. Since each key can represent more than one sound in combination
with other keys, there is usually no marking (letters) on the keys.
The Stenotypist is writing a full word or syllable with each
movement of his hands. The writing system seems to have evolved with
time to produce optimum high speed results, as opposed to the
conservatism of our regular typewriting. They seem to have beat the
Dvorak Keyboard, hands down.

Regards, Paul V.

--- In shavian@..., RSRICHMOND@a... wrote:
> If we're thinking of the same machine, it was called Stenotype,
not Stenograph. It was widely used by court reporters - I don't know
whether it's still in
use anywhere or not. The machines were quite silent, and their
output was
> print on a long paper tape which was saved as a record of the
trial. The reporter
> then produced the actual court record from the Stenotype tape. The
> transcriptionist didn't have to be the same person as the original
Stenotype operator, a
> great advantage over Gregg shorthand which could only be
transcribed by the
> person who took the notes. Many Stenotype operators were blind.
> Bob Richmond
> Knoxville TN and Gastonia NC



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From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-08-16 17:35:21 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: Teaching the Shavian Alphabet to one and all

Toggle Shavian
Hi Paige

Thanks for your feedback. Let me respond to the second point you
bring up.
If the only benefit of writing Shavian was to communicate back and
forth real-time (like a telephone) then of course you would have to
get a lot a people to learn it at the same time. And then at some
critical point when enough people in your community know it,
everybody starts to get the benefits.
But that is not the case. Writing is tool for a number of other
activities for which the number of other people knowing how to read
Shavian is irrelevent. Let me list just a few activities where the
Shavian Alphabet shines out ahead of the T.O., even if only a few
people understand it.

1. Jotting notes down in Shavian as a memory aid, memorandums.
2. Transcribing a conversation verbatim, to take notes of a lecture
3. Annotation of a book that you are studying
4. To help teach Phonics and Phonetics
5. A Phonetic standard by which to learn other languages besides
English.
6. To write a diary or other confidential material
7. Eliminating the less significant vowels in a writing a word, can
make Shavian into a reasonably effective shorthand.
We have to stress those benefits, to those parents teaching their
own kids at home.

We use reading and writing as both a way to extend our memory, but
also for Time Shifting. Once material is written down, whatever the
difficulty, that information is no longer time bound. We can learn
something from an author, long dead as if we were speaking to him
face to face. We absorb the information in our own time and at our
own rate. In real sense, we circumvent some of the harsh realities
of our own morality. What is our Will and Last Testament other than
a final chance to close the book our lives with neatness and
deliberation using the written word?

While the T.O. serves the purpose admirably, I think we need to
point out to children with reading and writing difficulties, that
the T.O. is not the only tool that will serve this purpose.

To start with people need to know that such a writing tool exist.
I suspect that Shavian Alphabet would minimize the effects of
Dyslexia and a number of other reading disorders.
It as if Amerslan (ASL) was withheld from the Deaf Community,
because the benefits of even minimal voice communication was
considered better that having full manual communication in an
isolated speech community.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. I definately think we should we consider producing beginner
texts and workbooks for children in Shavian.

--- In shavian@..., "Paige Gabhart" <pgabhart@a...>
wrote:
> Most people have this idea that learning to read is really hard
for a lot of people. Virtually nobody understands that a big part
of the problem is the alphabet rather than the language. And
teachers don't understand it either because it was never explained
to them when they were in school studying to become teachers, or, as
they prefer, educators. So I would anticipate that it would be
quite difficult to convince a parent home-schooling his child that
they should spend time
> learning to read using an alternative alphabet. The parent knows
the
> child has to learn T.O. and there is so much else to learn as
well, how
> can he devote his child's time to learning something which
virtually
> know one else knows? Obviously, we would have to do an excellent
job
> convincing the parent that the student would receive some benefit
from
> learning the Read alphabet.
>
> Should we consider the possibility of producing beginning texts and
> workbooks in Read? It would be a lot of work. I don't mean to
sound
> negative, but there are some rather large hurdles to overcome.
>
> Paige




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From: Ethan
Date: 2004-08-19 06:39:58 #
Subject: [shavian] Teaching Shavian to children

Toggle Shavian
I think the arguments regarding teaching children are interesting. I
also understand how teachers, especially those in the public schools,
would not be interested in teaching Shavian. Public education is full
of the status quo, for the most part.

I have had the experience of having a child of elementary school age ask
me about some Shavian text I had printed on a sheet of paper. He was
curious about it, and wanted to know more about the alphabet, even
asking on different occasions. This was highly unusual, as mosk kids of
that age want nothing to do with learning more about reading, being
"burned out" on trying to learn TO. You may not be surprised to know
that this kid was being educated at home by his parents, and had never
been to a school in his life, as far as I know. I myself have
experienced both worlds, being sent to public school for a few years,
then homeschooled - before we even had the legal right to do so, in the
early 1980s. Homeschooled children (and adults who were homeschooled)
often have an eagerness to learn new things, something which
unfortunately seems lacking in most children who attend only the public
schools. Homeschooled children may be an eager audience if you're
teaching Shavian.
--
·???????? - Ethan
My name in Shavian and Latin text


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From: Ethan
Date: 2004-08-19 06:39:58 #
Subject: [shavian] Teaching Shavian to children

Toggle Shavian
I think the arguments regarding teaching children are interesting. I
also understand how teachers, especially those in the public schools,
would not be interested in teaching Shavian. Public education is full
of the status quo, for the most part.

I have had the experience of having a child of elementary school age ask
me about some Shavian text I had printed on a sheet of paper. He was
curious about it, and wanted to know more about the alphabet, even
asking on different occasions. This was highly unusual, as mosk kids of
that age want nothing to do with learning more about reading, being
"burned out" on trying to learn TO. You may not be surprised to know
that this kid was being educated at home by his parents, and had never
been to a school in his life, as far as I know. I myself have
experienced both worlds, being sent to public school for a few years,
then homeschooled - before we even had the legal right to do so, in the
early 1980s. Homeschooled children (and adults who were homeschooled)
often have an eagerness to learn new things, something which
unfortunately seems lacking in most children who attend only the public
schools. Homeschooled children may be an eager audience if you're
teaching Shavian.
--
·???????? - Ethan
My name in Shavian and Latin text


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