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Reminder from the shavian calendar at eGroups.com

Event: Hugh Birkenhead -- transliteration
URL: http://www.egroups.com/cal?listname=shavian&md=d&day=10986
Date: Sun Jan 30, 2000
Time:



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hi, folks!

i've just joined the group; am fascinated by Shavian and am slowly
learning to write it in (American) English. Am also interested in
universal alphabets that can be used to write in any language
economically and beautifully. Does the grail exists? Or is it just to
hard and complicated to get all the sounds we make in an elegant letter
set? Please let me know. eric


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Do you know about the International Phonetic Alphabet? Information about it,
and a free downloadable font is available at the "Summer Institute of
Linguistics" site. Given the vast variety of meaningful sounds in the
world's languages, I'm not sure you'll get the economy or beauty you want,
but it works for all the languages we know so far. It is as close to a holy
grail as I think you'll get. But it probably looks more like a jelly glass
than a golden chalice.... Dan Szczurek
----------
>From: "Eric Quinn" <asmeva1@...>
>To: shavian@eGroups.com
>Subject: [shavian] neophyte seeks holy grail
>Date: Fri, Jan 28, 2000, 10:56 PM
>

>
>hi, folks!
>
>i've just joined the group; am fascinated by Shavian and am slowly
>learning to write it in (American) English. Am also interested in
>universal alphabets that can be used to write in any language
>economically and beautifully. Does the grail exists? Or is it just to
>hard and complicated to get all the sounds we make in an elegant letter
>set? Please let me know. eric
>
>
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>
>

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Hi, Dan!

Thanks for the tip about the International Phonetic Alphabet. I have
heard of it before and taken a gander at some web sites (nothing
as i recall with a downloadable font). I will go ahead and check out
the summer institute site and get the font; even if it is something of
an ugly duckling system (why afterall do we always have to use the
roman alphabet?), it will teach me alot about the meaningful
sounds that are out there. I would like to think that one day it might
become a swan, but a jelly-bean destiny seems more likely.

eric


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Hi all,

For awhile I thought about the idea of trying to add a handful of
characters
to Shavian as a kind of "extension" that would allow spelling of words
in
other common languages.

For example, I think only four letters would have to be added for
German.
More "could be" added, of course.

But when I started researching French and Spanish (of which I have no
knowledge), I started running into dialect problems and differences of
opinion
about what would be an optimal or minimal set of additional sounds.

I still think a European Extension to Shavian is a good idea, but other
than
German, I'm utterly incompetent to approach it.

It's not at the top of my Shavian to-do list anyway. :)

Thoughts?

Hal



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In a message from Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>
dated Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:47:27 -0800, my mailer made me see:

-> Hi all,
->
-> For awhile I thought about the idea of trying to add a handful of
-> characters
-> to Shavian as a kind of "extension" that would allow spelling of words
-> in
-> other common languages.
->
-> For example, I think only four letters would have to be added for
-> German.
-> More "could be" added, of course.
->
-> But when I started researching French and Spanish (of which I have no
-> knowledge), I started running into dialect problems and differences of
-> opinion
-> about what would be an optimal or minimal set of additional sounds.
->
-> I still think a European Extension to Shavian is a good idea, but other
-> than
-> German, I'm utterly incompetent to approach it.
->
-> It's not at the top of my Shavian to-do list anyway. :)
->
-> Thoughts?
->
-> Hal
->
->
->

It is an interesting idea. I have pondered it for a little bit and decided it would probably be best to start out with another alphabet entirely. Already there is the international phonetic alphabet which one could probably use. Take those sounds and create another script from it.

One of the very pretty things about Shavian is the relationship of letters that have a relationship vocally. It would be good to keep this type of thing present in a new alphabet. I find the hardest thing is the vowel sounds as people can make so many of them.

If you leave Europe and start adding other languages you might find it gets a little more hairy. For example in Urdu/Hindi there are two 't' sounds that are different from the English 't' (based on toungue position). In east Asia there are a lot of languages that differentiate words only by tone and this means you need to handle tone marks.

At the moment I have no time to pursue this but I am interested in the project. I hope to be able to finish A Christmas Carol before I go to France this Saturday, but after that I won't be able to do any more translations for a bit.

--
Scott Harrison

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At 10:13 PM 1/29/00 -0800, you wrote:
[snip-a-bit]
>but it works for all the languages we know so far. It is as close to a holy
>grail as I think you'll get. But it probably looks more like a jelly glass
>than a golden chalice.... Dan Szczurek
Do you remember the scene in "Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade", when he
had to pick the holy grail from a range of different cups? It wasn't the
sparkling gold one, or the one bedecked with jewels, but the humble wooden
one.


- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
- `+.,.+' www.ozemail.com.au/~acal -------------------------

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At 03:11 PM 1/31/00 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message from Hal Fulton <hal9000@...>
>dated Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:47:27 -0800, my mailer made me see:
>
>-> Hi all,
>->
>-> For awhile I thought about the idea of trying to add a handful of
>-> characters
>-> to Shavian as a kind of "extension" that would allow spelling of words
>-> in
>-> other common languages.
[snip]
I actually have an IPA font on my system, but I'm not sure if it has a
standard mapping (or even if there is one). I think there is provision for
it in the proposed unicode registry. IPA is not particularly pretty, but
then its purpose is purely functional.

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
- A N D Y Melbourne, Australia --- a.callaway@...
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A.M.Callaway wrote:
> I think there is provision for it in the proposed unicode registry.

It already is in Unicode 2.0, at positions U+0250 to U+02AF. If you have
Windows NT, you can start the 'Character Map' application and see that in
the 'group' drop-down box (underneath the 'font' box), there's an entry
called "IPA extensions".

Cheers,
Philip

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At 02:29 PM 2/2/00 +0100, you wrote:
>A.M.Callaway wrote:
>> I think there is provision for it in the proposed unicode registry.
>
>It already is in Unicode 2.0, at positions U+0250 to U+02AF. If you have
>Windows NT, you can start the 'Character Map' application and see that in
>the 'group' drop-down box (underneath the 'font' box), there's an entry
>called "IPA extensions".

Oh, yes, so there is.
What on Earth is Bopomofo? Sounds like a Robin Williams movie. :-)

- .+'^'+. A.M.Callaway ----------------- acal@...
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