Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

I don't know anything about an "older" Shaw's alphabet; maybe there were characters in the original proposal that were dropped before the alphabet was published.

The standard for pronunciation: "assuming the pronunciation to resemble that recorded of His Majesty our late King George V and sometimes described as Northern English;" [from the Foreward to Androcles, regarding the transliteration of the play; quoting Shaw's will].

This of course doesn't help me much as a midwestern US resident . . . .

Shaw also excluded the representation of single sounds by groups of letters, and the use of diacritical marks.

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: quozl@... <quozl@...>
To: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 2:15 PM
Subject: [shavian] Pronunciation... And odd behaviour of my posts via email...


>To be seen, at lest, this time I've decided to post from the website, as for some reason, my posts to this list via email won't display on the web...
>As for the previous poster's comments, Shavian was intended to work with English as spoken in an upperclass society in Britain, I forget exactly what the reference was...
>Shavian has a "kh" as in "loCH"? 'Tis news to me... :)
>D.M.Falk, aka Quozl, somewhere in Eureka, California...
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>eGroups Spotlight:
>"Africanshereandthere" - African-American artists, djembe drummers, dancers.
>http://offers.egroups.com/click/243/2
>
>eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
>Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are most stock sites so slow and annoying to use? StockMaster.com
is fast, easy, powerful, and free! Use company names, not ticker
symbols. Track your portfolio. Visit: http://stockmaster.com/?a

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

I don't feel a need for a single web site. I think the different sites provide a lot of variety, and as long as they reference each other there shouldn't be a problem . . .

My only analogous experience is with the Esperanto movement. There are numerous web sites, but no "official" site. The various sites all have different strengths and different resources to offer. There are of course some that are of greater value because of the quality of the content.

Lee

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Track your stocks and funds in a StockMaster portfolio. With easy
setup, you get quotes, charts, and news for them all on just one page.
No limits, fast loading, and FREE! http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f8

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Lee A. Miller wrote:

[...]

> The standard for pronunciation: "assuming the pronunciation to resemble that recorded of His Majesty our late King George V and sometimes described as Northern English;" [from the Foreward to Androcles, regarding the transliteration of the play; quoting Shaw's will].

Thank you. That was the reference I was thinking of. It is also in
DeMeyere's Shavian PDF as well...

> This of course doesn't help me much as a midwestern US resident . . . .

If you are at all familiar with the BBC, the common accent used by their
radio announcers is of this style. However, may I offer advice: Follow
pronunciation of each Shavian letter based on how you'd pronounce the name
of the letter, and follow accordingly in your own pronunciation. As I'd
imagine it, your Shavian spelling should not differ much with someone of
another accent, even if there's significant difference in accents. For
example, you're writing "say", and one British accent makes it sound like
"sigh"- The "ay" sounds like "aye", and "aye" would sound like "oy"...

Letter pronunciations should not be locked into a single accent (in spite
preference by those who developed Shavian), as it would give rige to way
too many different spellings of English, given the significant number of
accents & dialects spoken worldwide....

> Shaw also excluded the representation of single sounds by groups of letters, and the use of diacritical marks.

As should be. That was _precisely_ why G.B.Shaw detested conventional
English spelling under the Latin alphabet... And frankly, I agree- English
isn't spelled as it sounds, even with standardised spelling conventions...

D.M.Falk, aka Quozl Mephit...




------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups Spotlight:
"drumkeeranfolk" - Irish folk stories and the Drumkeeran Family.
http://offers.egroups.com/click/243/1

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com

With regard to Quikscript, I came across this alphabet in an Australian book about two years ago. It so took my fancy that I have been using it ever since. I have quite a lot of information about this modified version of Shavian, most of which I obtained from Michael Bott a librarian at Reading University. This University holds most of Kingsley Reads work including correspondence from Kingsley to GBS and a manual on the use of Quikscript.
If anyone is interested I would be happy to give further details of this alphabet
.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of waiting for your stock quotes and charts to load?
StockMaster is super-fast for quotes, charts, news, and portfolios.
Markets don't wait, why should you? http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f9

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

In response to Lee's response,

Don't forget I made it clear that the individual sites would not have to be
adandoned. On the contrary, I also believe that having various sites of
different strengths is a good thing here (for example I would not remove my
own Shavian site from the web). What I was suggesting is that there be a
central, focal point where the knowledge of ALL the various Shavian fans is
brought together, so that support can be consolidated; this will not REPLACE
the current sites but will ADD to them. It will do the influence of the
alphabet a whole heap of good, because newcomers will receive a far stronger
view of support for the alphabet - far more than the separate sites give at
the moment.

Hugh

P.S. Who else says 'aye'? I'm waiting for everyone to comment...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: leem1023@... [mailto:leem1023@...]
> Sent: 23 March 1999 22:45
> To: shavian@...
> Subject: [shavian] Web site?
>
>
> I don't feel a need for a single web site. I think the different
> sites provide a lot of variety, and as long as they reference
> each other there shouldn't be a problem . . .
>
> My only analogous experience is with the Esperanto movement.
> There are numerous web sites, but no "official" site. The
> various sites all have different strengths and different
> resources to offer. There are of course some that are of greater
> value because of the quality of the content.
>
> Lee
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Track your stocks and funds in a StockMaster portfolio. With easy
> setup, you get quotes, charts, and news for them all on just one page.
> No limits, fast loading, and FREE! http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f8
>
> eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
> Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
>
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups Spotlight:
"The Skinny" - Skullyboy's Hollywood and Music World Gossip.
http://offers.egroups.com/click/248/1

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

In response to Lee's response,

Don't forget I made it clear that the individual sites would not have to be adandoned. On the contrary, I also believe that having various sites of different strengths is a good thing here (for example I would not remove my own Shavian site from the web). What I was suggesting is that there be a central, focal point where the knowledge of ALL the various Shavian fans is brought together, so that support can be consolidated; this will not REPLACE the current sites but will ADD to them. It will do the influence of the alphabet a whole heap of good, because newcomers will receive a far stronger view of support for the alphabet - far more than the separate sites give at the moment.

Hugh

P.S. Who else says 'aye'? I'm waiting for everyone to comment...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: leem1023@... [mailto:leem1023@...]
> Sent: 23 March 1999 22:45
> To: shavian@...
> Subject: [shavian] Web site?
>
>
> I don't feel a need for a single web site. I think the different
> sites provide a lot of variety, and as long as they reference
> each other there shouldn't be a problem . . .
>
> My only analogous experience is with the Esperanto movement.
> There are numerous web sites, but no "official" site. The
> various sites all have different strengths and different
> resources to offer. There are of course some that are of greater
> value because of the quality of the content.
>
> Lee
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Track your stocks and funds in a StockMaster portfolio. With easy
> setup, you get quotes, charts, and news for them all on just one page.
> No limits, fast loading, and FREE! http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f8
>
> eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
> Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
>
>
>

In response to what Dennis said,

I agree entirely. Spelling should be determined via the speaker's OWN
pronunciation of the various letters. Thanks for mentioning this!

Hugh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Falk [mailto:quozl@...]
> Sent: 24 March 1999 05:06
> To: shavian@...
> Cc: Dennis Falk
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Pronunciation... And odd behaviour of my posts
> via email...
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Lee A. Miller wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > The standard for pronunciation: "assuming the pronunciation to
> resemble that recorded of His Majesty our late King George V and
> sometimes described as Northern English;" [from the Foreward to
> Androcles, regarding the transliteration of the play; quoting
> Shaw's will].
>
> Thank you. That was the reference I was thinking of. It is also in
> DeMeyere's Shavian PDF as well...
>
> > This of course doesn't help me much as a midwestern US resident . . . .
>
> If you are at all familiar with the BBC, the common accent used by their
> radio announcers is of this style. However, may I offer advice: Follow
> pronunciation of each Shavian letter based on how you'd pronounce the name
> of the letter, and follow accordingly in your own pronunciation. As I'd
> imagine it, your Shavian spelling should not differ much with someone of
> another accent, even if there's significant difference in accents. For
> example, you're writing "say", and one British accent makes it sound like
> "sigh"- The "ay" sounds like "aye", and "aye" would sound like "oy"...
>
> Letter pronunciations should not be locked into a single accent (in spite
> preference by those who developed Shavian), as it would give rige to way
> too many different spellings of English, given the significant number of
> accents & dialects spoken worldwide....
>
> > Shaw also excluded the representation of single sounds by
> groups of letters, and the use of diacritical marks.
>
> As should be. That was _precisely_ why G.B.Shaw detested conventional
> English spelling under the Latin alphabet... And frankly, I agree- English
> isn't spelled as it sounds, even with standardised spelling conventions...
>
> D.M.Falk, aka Quozl Mephit...
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups Spotlight:
> "drumkeeranfolk" - Irish folk stories and the Drumkeeran Family.
> http://offers.egroups.com/click/243/1
>
> eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
> Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
>
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too much effort to find the stock info you want each day? StockMaster
lets you enter a company name and quickly shows you a daily quote,
chart, and news all on one page. Free! http://stockmaster.com/?a=f7

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

In response to what Dennis said,

I agree entirely. Spelling should be determined via the speaker's OWN pronunciation of the various letters. Thanks for mentioning this!

Hugh

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Falk [mailto:quozl@...]
> Sent: 24 March 1999 05:06
> To: shavian@...
> Cc: Dennis Falk
> Subject: [shavian] Re: Pronunciation... And odd behaviour of my posts
> via email...
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, Lee A. Miller wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > The standard for pronunciation: "assuming the pronunciation to
> resemble that recorded of His Majesty our late King George V and
> sometimes described as Northern English;" [from the Foreward to
> Androcles, regarding the transliteration of the play; quoting
> Shaw's will].
>
> Thank you. That was the reference I was thinking of. It is also in
> DeMeyere's Shavian PDF as well...
>
> > This of course doesn't help me much as a midwestern US resident . . . .
>
> If you are at all familiar with the BBC, the common accent used by their
> radio announcers is of this style. However, may I offer advice: Follow
> pronunciation of each Shavian letter based on how you'd pronounce the name
> of the letter, and follow accordingly in your own pronunciation. As I'd
> imagine it, your Shavian spelling should not differ much with someone of
> another accent, even if there's significant difference in accents. For
> example, you're writing "say", and one British accent makes it sound like
> "sigh"- The "ay" sounds like "aye", and "aye" would sound like "oy"...
>
> Letter pronunciations should not be locked into a single accent (in spite
> preference by those who developed Shavian), as it would give rige to way
> too many different spellings of English, given the significant number of
> accents & dialects spoken worldwide....
>
> > Shaw also excluded the representation of single sounds by
> groups of letters, and the use of diacritical marks.
>
> As should be. That was _precisely_ why G.B.Shaw detested conventional
> English spelling under the Latin alphabet... And frankly, I agree- English
> isn't spelled as it sounds, even with standardised spelling conventions...
>
> D.M.Falk, aka Quozl Mephit...
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> eGroups Spotlight:
> "drumkeeranfolk" - Irish folk stories and the Drumkeeran Family.
> http://offers.egroups.com/click/243/1
>
> eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
> Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
>
>
>

Yes, please do!

Is there anything still in print? If not, can you post a visual of what it looks like?

Thanks.

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: collinr@... <collinr@...>
To: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 11:32 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Recollections


> With regard to Quikscript, I came across this alphabet in an Australian book about two years ago. It so took my fancy that I have been using it ever since. I have quite a lot of information about this modified version of Shavian, most of which I obtained from Michael Bott a librarian at Reading University. This University holds most of Kingsley Reads work including correspondence from Kingsley to GBS and a manual on the use of Quikscript.
>If anyone is interested I would be happy to give further details of this alphabet
>.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Tired of waiting for your stock quotes and charts to load?
>StockMaster is super-fast for quotes, charts, news, and portfolios.
>Markets don't wait, why should you? http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f9
>
>eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
>Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of waiting for your stock quotes and charts to load?
StockMaster is super-fast for quotes, charts, news, and portfolios.
Markets don't wait, why should you? http://www.stockmaster.com/?a

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

I'm glad that the threatened rift in the Shavian internet community
concerning "huNG" and "Ha-ha" seems to have healed for the
time being, but now that Ross DeMeyere has brought the matter
of the switched glyphs to our attention I imagine it will keep
nagging at the perfectionist part of many of our minds for some
time to come -- and rightly so. Maybe correcting them is
something we could consider later, if and when we know more
about the number of non-internet Shavian users, and about the
decisions and/or mistakes made in the production of the Shavian
reading key and _Androcles_and_the_Lion_.

On a related matter, I said in my previous message that I thought
any major errors in the reading key could easily have been
corrected before _Androcles_ was published. But that has made
me think of a number of errors in the Shavian text of _Androcles_
which I have spotted, which should have been picked up as
glaring mistakes by anyone copy-editing or proof-reading the
text of _Androcles_, as long as they were adequately familiar
with the alphabet, and as long as they weren't in a terrible hurry.

In the examples below, I'm assuming that anyone checking my
references will have the same page-numbering. I'm reading the
hardback Public Trustee's edition. I've typed the errors as they
would appear if viewed in a Shavian font; I know this is hard to
read in plain text, so I've put a much more friendly HTML-and-GIF
version on my web site at:

http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/den/shavian/errors.html

I assume the errors were duplicated in the Penguin paperback
edition. If someone with a paperback _Androcles_ cannot find
them, could you please let me know?

Here are some errors from the first few pages of _Androcles_:

Page 32, line 7 Roman: "pull" Error: pul Should be: pUl
Compare: page 32, line 6

Page 36, line 11 Roman: "good-looking" Error: /gUd-lUkiN
[Unnecessary namer dot]

Page 36, line 13 Roman: "centurion" Error: /sentjUDian
[Unnecessary namer dot] Compare: page 38, line 9

Page 44, line 4 Roman: "Lavinia" Error: /ravinia
Should be: /lavinia Compare: page 44, line 1


If there are such daft errors in just the first 13 Shavian pages of
_Androcles_, how highly should we regard the book as a model
of the Shavian alphabet?



Fr. Lionel Ghoti O.Pisc.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are most stock sites so slow and annoying to use? StockMaster.com
is fast, easy, powerful, and free! Use company names, not ticker
symbols. Track your portfolio. Visit: http://stockmaster.com/?aö

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com