Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Dear Shavia,

Could you please say if each of you has an HTML-compatible mail reader? This
may be important for posting messages written in Shavian...

Thanks,

Hugh

P.S. On PCs, Outlook Express, Outlook 97/98 and the AOL mail system support
it. I don't know how support for HTML-mail is on Macs.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are most stock sites so slow and annoying to use? StockMaster.com
is fast, easy, powerful, and free! Use company names, not ticker
symbols. Track your portfolio. Visit: http://stockmaster.com/?a=f6

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

Hmmm . . .

I think any change in characters has to result in "Shaw 2.0" or something of that sort. In language matters, change occurs through usage, almost never by fiat. I think we should let the matter rest. Shavian as we know it has "hung" and "haha" as they were published. I'm personally not convinced they were errors; there's probably no way to know for sure.

As for errors in the Androcles text, there are a number of obvious typographical errors. Probably unavoidable in a production of this sort. (The page numbers in the paperback are the same, by the way). I don't think we can take the text in each particular as a model, but the general usage established in the text is reliable. Hopefully any future publications in the Shaw alphabet will have a higher standard of accuracy . . . .

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: Lionel Ghoti <ghoti@...>
To: Shavian eGroup <shavian@...>
Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 8:46 AM
Subject: [shavian] Errors in Androcles


I'm glad that the threatened rift in the Shavian internet community
concerning "huNG" and "Ha-ha" seems to have healed for the
time being, but now that Ross DeMeyere has brought the matter
of the switched glyphs to our attention I imagine it will keep
nagging at the perfectionist part of many of our minds for some
time to come -- and rightly so. Maybe correcting them is
something we could consider later, if and when we know more
about the number of non-internet Shavian users, and about the
decisions and/or mistakes made in the production of the Shavian
reading key and _Androcles_and_the_Lion_.

On a related matter, I said in my previous message that I thought
any major errors in the reading key could easily have been
corrected before _Androcles_ was published. But that has made
me think of a number of errors in the Shavian text of _Androcles_
which I have spotted, which should have been picked up as
glaring mistakes by anyone copy-editing or proof-reading the
text of _Androcles_, as long as they were adequately familiar
with the alphabet, and as long as they weren't in a terrible hurry.

In the examples below, I'm assuming that anyone checking my
references will have the same page-numbering. I'm reading the
hardback Public Trustee's edition. I've typed the errors as they
would appear if viewed in a Shavian font; I know this is hard to
read in plain text, so I've put a much more friendly HTML-and-GIF
version on my web site at:

http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/den/shavian/errors.html

I assume the errors were duplicated in the Penguin paperback
edition. If someone with a paperback _Androcles_ cannot find
them, could you please let me know?

Here are some errors from the first few pages of _Androcles_:

Page 32, line 7 Roman: "pull" Error: pul Should be: pUl
Compare: page 32, line 6

Page 36, line 11 Roman: "good-looking" Error: /gUd-lUkiN
[Unnecessary namer dot]

Page 36, line 13 Roman: "centurion" Error: /sentjUDian
[Unnecessary namer dot] Compare: page 38, line 9

Page 44, line 4 Roman: "Lavinia" Error: /ravinia
Should be: /lavinia Compare: page 44, line 1


If there are such daft errors in just the first 13 Shavian pages of
_Androcles_, how highly should we regard the book as a model
of the Shavian alphabet?



Fr. Lionel Ghoti O.Pisc.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are most stock sites so slow and annoying to use? StockMaster.com
is fast, easy, powerful, and free! Use company names, not ticker
symbols. Track your portfolio. Visit: http://stockmaster.com/?aö

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com






------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are most stock sites so slow and annoying to use? StockMaster.com
is fast, easy, powerful, and free! Use company names, not ticker
symbols. Track your portfolio. Visit: http://stockmaster.com/?aö

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

<000801be7632$475137e0$c41e883-@hugh> wrote:
Original Article: http://www.egroups.com/list/shavian/?start=60
> Dear Shavia,
>
> Could you please say if each of you has an HTML-compatible mail reader? This
> may be important for posting messages written in Shavian...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hugh
>
> P.S. On PCs, Outlook Express, Outlook 97/98 and the AOL mail system support
> it. I don't know how support for HTML-mail is on Macs.
>
>
I have a PC with windows and AOL3.0, will be updating to AOL4.0 on March 27 when I will have a Pentium chip installed. Based on the above Post Script I must have an HTML-compatable reader.

Neil Stewart

------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's everyone looking at? Check out the Top40 most requested stocks!
Plus quotes, charts, news, portfolios, mutual funds, and discussion.
All free, fast, and easy. Visit: http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f5

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

In the message "[shavian] HTML-compatible mail readers" dated 1999.03.24
(3:09 PM -0500), Hugh Birkenhead wrote:

> Could you please say if each of you has an HTML-compatible mail reader? This
> may be important for posting messages written in Shavian...

I do but I know that at least Dennis doesn't.

> P.S. On PCs, Outlook Express, Outlook 97/98 and the AOL mail system support
> it. I don't know how support for HTML-mail is on Macs.

OE, Cyberdog and Eudora Pro all support HTML on Macintosh and AOL
client should also; I haven't used it since a major version ago. Though
we've had trouble on the list with the different mail clients disagreeing
about what is acceptable HTML.

--
Michael J. Rider, aka Ixbalam http://i.am/ixbalam

"While intelligent people can often simplify the complex,
a fool is more likely to complicate the simple."
-Gerald W. Grumet



------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups Spotlight:
"Mirrentalk" - English actress, Helen Mirren.
http://offers.egroups.com/click/248/0

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

Hi! I think I could go along with a central site for the Shavian alphabet.
It takes a lot of time to jump from one site to another. Moreover, I think
it might give the alphabet a sense of authority rather than just something
used as an amusement. If we want to promote the alphabet rather than just
use it among ourselves then we have to consider how to "package" the Shavian
alphabet so that it attracts others. Even Esperanto has a headquarters in
Rotterdam with a delegate book although each country has their own
management of club activities, etc. I should think it proper that someone
at the University of Reading in England would give it a proper atmosphere.
And that is another point that could be discussed. Should the Shavian
Alphabet continue to be identified with Shaw, Mr. Read, and the discussion
of phonetics or should we have sites that would "modernize" things a bit.
Actually, I would like to see some sites dedicated to the history, thoughts
and feelings of the older Shavian writers if there are any out there.
Members could be referred to as classical Shavian writers. Next, a site for
those who would like to suggest improvements in the fonts or letters. These
would be experimental for the amusement or use of those who take a fancy to
them for their personal use. The most critical point however, is that we
use the classical Shavian alphabet among members. If we cannot do this or
won't do this then we will have to accept the Shavian alphabet as a personal
script to write things down that we don't want others to read. There were
many times that I attended Esperanto meetings in which people spoke their
own language more than Esperanto which of course, defeats the whole purpose.
I still have no idea how we are to write in the Shavian alphabet for e-mail.
I need someone to walk me through on this. Once I understand how to do this
I will write my comments in the Shavian alphabet. I am happy to read so
many interesting thoughts from other writers. By this e-mail forum perhaps
we can stimulate one another in a way that we all profit from it. By the
way, I am not 100 percent permissive about people using Shaw's alphabet
according to their regional accents. I would find it difficult with certain
Scottish or Irish accents or the cockney accent. Movies from England using
strong British accents or unusual ones had to have a more international
British English accent for Americans to understand them. It may be a
novelty or some interest to linguists but for general purposes I would
suggest that there should be a general understanding that we take into
account the nationality of the person we are writing to and whether they are
able to understand the way we pronounce our words. This is just a common
courtesy for an alphabet that is to be used in a number of countries.
People who take a certain pride in their regional accents may find this
difficult to accept because they have not traveled much and do not really
understand the need for this. However, anyone who has traveled a great deal
will realize the thoughtlessness in trying to pressure people from other
cultures to conform to one's own expectations. I think the Shavian alphabet
probably works better when people who use it are from the same region. I
would probably have difficulty understanding the pronunciation of New
Yorkers or people from certain areas of Texas or Louisiana. I know that I
have run into this problem when I was in New York and Georgia.
sidban2@...




_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups Spotlight:
"Playsandplaywrights" - Write and analyze plays for production.
http://offers.egroups.com/click/248/4

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

First off, I've checked my email headers- It does show "TEXT/PLAIN", so I
don't understand what's wroing with eGroups' handling of my posts here...

As for HTML-based email, I cannot read it online, as I'm on a text-only
shell account here... _HOWEVER_, I can download & upload HTML-written
texts, so I can read online Shavian offline at my convenience... :)

As for a central site for Shavian, I agree- A central site offering info
on Shavian with links to various resources online (a well as its own
resources) would be quite helpful... :)

On pronunciation, as I've tried to say, don't write Shavian in your accent
based on the pronunciation of the letters according the perscribed accent
(Northern English, King George V(?)), but spell according to how _you_
pronounce the letters' names- It should _minimise_ spelling differences.

As for further development of Shavian, this should be left open to
possibilities, but a radical change should not be made that renders
previous published works useless...

Should Shavian be linked to Shaw? For historical sake, yes, but it should
_never_ be limited in such scope. That's why I say "Shavian" rather than
"Shaw Alphabet", by the way... :) I never got into Shavian because of
Shaw- Hell, I've never _seen_ a copy of "Androcles...", except what few
examples have been offered on the web... I have a fascination with
languages & writing systems- _Especially_ writing systems- So this piqwued
my interest... :) I'm not all _that_ old- Shavian is actually older than I
by about 3 years... :) (I was born in 1965, so that makes me 33...) I'm
not even British... (I live in rural California, up in the Redwoods, which
are named for another inventor of an alphabet- Sequoia... :) ) I've even
gotten one friend (younger than I) hooked on Shavian... :) And he
subscribes to this list as I do... :)

Anyhoo...

D.M.Falk, aka Quozl...

> Dear Shavia,
>
> Could you please say if each of you has an HTML-compatible
> mail reader? This
> may be important for posting messages written in Shavian...

I am currently subscribed both at home and at work -- at work I use Outlook
98 (HTML compatible) and at home Pegasus Mail (which I think can also parse
HTML, but will display text-only by default if both formats are in the same
message). So no problem here.

Cheers,
Philip

------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups Spotlight:
"Astrophysics Forum" - All about astrophysics.
http://offers.egroups.com/click/243/5

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

> The most critical point however, is that we use the classical
> Shavian alphabet among members.

I agree with this in principle; however, not everyone has the same
proficiency.

> If we cannot do this or won't do this then we will have to
> accept the Shavian alphabet as a personal script to write
> things down that we don't want others to read. There were
> many times that I attended Esperanto meetings in which people
> spoke their own language more than Esperanto which of course,
> defeats the whole purpose. I still have no idea how we are to
> write in the Shavian alphabet for e-mail. I need someone to
> walk me through on this.

If we all have HTML-compatible mailers, we can post in HTML using a Shavian
font which we will have to agree on -- for example, "Shaw" or "Lionspaw" or
"Androcles" or whatever.

> Once I understand how to do this I will write my comments in the Shavian
alphabet.

I personally would prefer if postings in Shavian were accompanied by a
transliteration in Roman letters, for the benefit of those who do not read
Shavian so fluently. (The Shavian can be first so that those who prefer
reading Shavian need not skip down in the message.)

> By the way, I am not 100 percent permissive about people
> using Shaw's alphabet according to their regional accents. I
> would find it difficult with certain Scottish or Irish
> accents or the cockney accent.

I even find it strange when Americans spell according to their accent; for
example, many not distinguishing between "awe" and "on" or between "ash" and
"ah". However, it's probably not the right idea to teach them "proper"
pronunciation so that they can write Shavian "properly".

Cheers,
Philip

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tired of waiting for your stock quotes and charts to load?
StockMaster is super-fast for quotes, charts, news, and portfolios.
Markets don't wait, why should you? http://www.stockmaster.com/?a=f9

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

* Well, to quote a well-known line: "ALL THOSE IN FAVOUR SAY 'AYE'!"
*
* Hugh Birkenhead

AYE!
Toodle-Pip
A.M.Callaway
acal@...


---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004

* Well, to quote a well-known line: "ALL THOSE IN FAVOUR SAY 'AYE'!"
*
* Hugh Birkenhead

AYE!
Toodle-Pip
A.M.Callaway
acal@...


------------------------------------------------------------------------
eGroups Spotlight:
"Loads" - A "truckstop" support group for trucker families.
http://offers.egroups.com/click/243/3

eGroup home: http://www.eGroups.com/list/shavian
Free Web-based e-mail groups by eGroups.com



---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.781 / Virus Database: 527 - Release Date: 21/10/2004