Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Daniel G. Szczurek [mailto:twojbrat@...]
Gesendet am: Montag, 27. November 2000 00:20
An: shavian@...
Betreff: Re: [shavian] Some Issues
Dan--I do it according to my pronunciation, but this is a tough question. I pronounce Polish names as they would be pronounced in Polish, but am aware that few other people do. And I often have no idea how other people wil phonetically mangle Polish names. As a good illustration, I'd like to see how people write my last name in the Shaw alphabet--"Szczurek." And you thought "Von Weber" was a problem. My uncle "Miklaszynski" has no problem with "Von Weber, either."

I'd probably write ScMrek, fon vEbX, mikwaSinskI. Doing the best I can with what I've got -- I noticed especially that I couldn't find a good sound for the German long E. "ay" is not that really close.

Cheers,
Philip

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Gary Shannon wrote:
The case of dictionary order:

Has it been established what the cannonical order of the symbols is? If the dictionary were to be translated, in what order would the words be arranged? The present dictionary has related words close together by virtue of their similar spellings. ("able" - "ability" for example) The initial vowel sounds in these two words are different, however, and would be represented by different initial Shavian symbols. Is there any virtue in selecting spellings which are not strictly phonetic, yet which preserve information about the word, its origin and relatedness to other words? In other words, should "able" and "ability" have the same initial symbols in spite of not having the same initial sounds?

I say they should not. It can be interesting to trace the relationship between words, but that's one of the reasons English spelling is in the state that it is. I'd say that one should spell according to the sound, not according to etymology or related words. Even if that means you can't find related words close to each other in the dictionary. But then, for example, humble and humility aren't next to each other, either -- should we change it to humile? Or humblity?

The case of the extra "g":

The word "hungry" is pronounced "hung-gree", and not "hung-ree". There is an extra "g" sound here that snuck in behind our backs. Should this be rendered hung-gree, "huNgrI", or hung-ree, "huNrI" in Shavian. The one seems decidedly unphonetic, while the other seems redundant. I haven't decided which I prefer, and found words rendered both ways in my own translations. But I do find it confusing to read a word like "miNld", which I believe should be rendered "miNgld".

I say write the G when it's pronounced. This makes the difference, for example, between finger and singer: fiNgD and siND. Hence, huNgrI.

The case of drawing conclusions:

"Conclusion" is a good example of an ambiguous, or at least contested, initial vowel sound. Is it kon-klew-zhun, "konklMZun", or kun-klew-zhun "kunklMZun". The first seems more natural, but the second seems more accurate, while speakers in other dialects might find both "wrong".

I would go for kanklMZan or konklMZan, not a spelling with u (which I use in a stressed position).

When are double letters justified?

In certain cases it seems to me that doubel consonants are required to render the correct pronunciation. For example "openness" seems to require two "n's"; "Opennes". "Openes" just doesn't seem right to me. Comments?

I agree.

Rendering foreign names and phrases:

Is "Von Weber" to be rendered "/von /webx"? or "/fOn /vEbx"? I much prefer to render the name as closely as possible to its proper German pronunciation, and would choose "/fOn /vEbx".
On the other had, I would lean towards rendering Latin phrases in the Roman aplhabet, since Shavian was not deisgned to render Latin, and the ancient Roman's used the Roman alphabet themselves. Thus, just as a Greek quotation should be rendered in the Greek alphabet, so should Latin quotations be rendered in the Roman alphabet. Comments?

You have a point, but I don't think many English-speaking people could read a Greek quotation in the Greek alphabet. Or consider what would happen if everyone would write words such as Sputnik, perestroika, Chechnya, Gorbachev in Cyrillic. It's probably better to stick to Shavian, since the Roman alphabet is also "foreign" to it.

Cheers,
Philip

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-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Scott Harrison [mailto:scott_harrison@...]
Gesendet am: Mittwoch, 13. Dezember 2000 16:30
An: shavian@...
Betreff: Re: [shavian] Re: Suggestions for spelling... (again)


? ??? ??? ? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?? ? ???, ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????


·????

What the heck?

Cheers,

Philip


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wF dM wI Yl insist on rivxtiN t /lAtin skript wen TiNz get hItid?

probablI bikoz it tEks a lot les efDt fP mOst v us t rId n rFt in lAtin skript kampXd t SEvian :-) F nO HAt it tEks mI kwFt a bit v konsentrESan t rId sumTiN ritan in SEvian, Ho its fXlI IzI t rFt, TANks t H namonik kIbPd mApiN.

cCz,
filip

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wen pIpal kum rQnd t mFn, n sI mI rFtiN in His Alfabet, HE R verI intDestid indId.

F YlwEz fFnd it funI wen HE ysk wot lANwiJ HAt iz n F ynsD, "iNgliS" :-)

cCz,
filip

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nOt F'm stil trFiN t mis Qt HOz fP kAriktDz, Jast t sI if wot F sE kAn stil bI ritn wiH nO siDias leJabiliti problamz... sO fR F'm not misiN HOz kAriktDz At Yl, bat dM tel mI if V hAv eni siDias abJekSnz abQt mF misiN Hem Qt.

wot R HOz fP kAraktDz V R tYkiN abQt?

cCz,
filip

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You have a point, but I don't think many English-speaking people could read a Greek quotation in the Greek alphabet. Or consider what would happen if everyone would write words such as Sputnik, perestroika, Chechnya, Gorbachev in Cyrillic. It's probably better to stick to Shavian, since the Roman alphabet is also "foreign" to it.

Just for fun -- that would be ???????, ???????????, ?????, ???????? :-)

Cheers,
Philip

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----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Access to Androcles




<snip>



F TiNk sumwun (pDhAps a fV v us) SUd TiNk abQt pradVsiN a nV '/AndraklIz' - a noval, P uHD loN-iS stPI, pradVst in a bF-Alfabetikal fPmAt. it wUdant dM Just t rI-rilIs H /AndraklIz stPI, bikoz not HAt menI pIpal wUd wont t pik it up n rId it. HAt wUd bI a gUd wE v stRtiN H 'rI-rilIs' v /SEvIan HAt iz loN OvDdV nQ.

Ivan if H Alfabet wuns agen fElz t kApcD wFdspred intDest, At lIst wI wil bI aSUDiN HAt anuHD JenDESan gets t nO HAt His Alfabet igzists, Hus kIpiN it alFv.

an ekselent FdW! HAt rEziz a fV intxestiN kwescunz. H pIs wUd hAv t bI sumTiN HAt pIpl wUd wont t rId, n SUd probablI bI sumTiN fXlI kontempPXI. H klAsiks hAv H AdvAniJ v bIiN frI frum kopIrFt, but az muc az F enJq H lFks v /pO n /twEn HE dOnt hAv a vXI lRJ folOiN HIz dEz. sO H wXk cOzin wUd IHx hAv t bI v rIsent vintiJ, but frI v kopIrFt, P an PiJinil wXk, P sumTiN Oldx HAt stil hAz wFd apIl in spFt v it's EJ. (suc as H /bFbl, H /dQ /dE /ciN, sum v HAt /nOstadomus nonsens, ets.)

--gXI

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Newton" <philip.newton@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] UTF-8 mail messages


> Gary Shannon wrote:
> > unless Windows goes to Unicode users won't go to Unicode.
>
> Windows NT uses Unicode internally :-). So if you have the correct font,
> Shavian should display correctly. However, I don't think there's a
keyboard
> input method that produces the Shavian Unicode code points. But that's
> probably because it's such a minority (there's no keyboard input method
for
> Esperanto, either, and the letters are there in the free fonts Microsoft
> provides on its page and there are more Esperanto speakers than Shavian
> writers, I'll wager).
>
> Cheers,
> Philip

I had no trouble getting Esperanto fonts (SudEuro) working on windows, but
even though I found out how to make my browser speak Unicode, I still
haven't found the way to make my mailer (Outlook Express) speak Unicode. As
long as it's doesn't just happen by itself when you turn on the power switch
people will have trouble getting it to work, and probably won't bother
trying.

--gary



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----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Newton <mailto:philip.newton@...>
To: 'shavian@...' <mailto:'shavian@...'>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: Suggestions for spelling... (again)

wF dM wI Yl insist on rivxtiN t /lAtin skript wen TiNz get hItid?

probablI bikoz it tEks a lot les efDt fP mOst v us t rId n rFt in lAtin skript kampXd t SEvian :-) F nO HAt it tEks mI kwFt a bit v konsentrESan t rId sumTiN ritan in SEvian, Ho its fXlI IzI t rFt, TANks t H namonik kIbPd mApiN.

cCz,
filip

F agrI Hat it tEks a bit lYNgx t rId /Svian, but on H oHx hAnd Ic tFm F rId anuHx pOst it gOz a litl fAstx. in H pAst fV wIks mF rIdiN spId hAz inkrIst dramAtiklI. n iznt _HAt_ H pqnt v VziN it frIkwentlI?

--gXI

p.s. F TiNk Fv sIn abQt a duzin speliNs fP /SEvWn, /SEvIen, /SEvian, /SYvIun, /SEvIun, ets. wat iz H "prIfxd" speliN?



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