Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

From: Daniel Szczurek

----------
From: Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
To: "'shavian@...'" <shavian@...>
Subject: Re: [shavian] Some Issues
Date: Dec Fri, 2000, 09:29




Gary Shannon wrote:
The case of dictionary order:

Has it been established what the cannonical order of the symbols is? If the dictionary were to be translated, in what order would the words be arranged? The present dictionary has related words close together by virtue of their similar spellings. ("able" - "ability" for example) The initial vowel sounds in these two words are different, however, and would be represented by different initial Shavian symbols. Is there any virtue in selecting spellings which are not strictly phonetic, yet which preserve information about the word, its origin and relatedness to other words? In other words, should "able" and "ability" have the same initial symbols in spite of not having the same initial sounds?

I say they should not. It can be interesting to trace the relationship between words, but that's one of the reasons English spelling is in the state that it is. I'd say that one should spell according to the sound, not according to etymology or related words. Even if that means you can't find related words close to each other in the dictionary. But then, for example, humble and humility aren't next to each other, either -- should we change it to humile? Or humblity?


==I think the question of dictionary order is an important one, one that we should make some effort at giving an initial solution to. In other languages where words are related but not pronounced the same, related words are listed after the main entry and definitions have been given: e.g.

able: [definition]; see also--ability, unable, disability....

The case of the extra "g":

== Hale and others call this "g" that appears after an "ng" sound "an excrescent g." I usually write it, because it's definitely there in my speech, even though it's actually a transiting from the "ng" to whatever follows. The fact that this transition occurs in some, but not all words where it would be expected, makes me think it's a distinctive phoneme in English and not "just" a phonetic transition. It's presence or absence does not impede comprehensibility for me.

The word "hungry" is pronounced "hung-gree", and not "hung-ree". There is an extra "g" sound here that snuck in behind our backs. Should this be rendered hung-gree, "huNgrI", or hung-ree, "huNrI" in Shavian. The one seems decidedly unphonetic, while the other seems redundant. I haven't decided which I prefer, and found words rendered both ways in my own translations. But I do find it confusing to read a word like "miNld", which I believe should be rendered "miNgld".

I say write the G when it's pronounced. This makes the difference, for example, between finger and singer: fiNgD and siND. Hence, huNgrI.





eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540655/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

Dear John,
At what site (URL) can I download this Jerome font?
Daniel Szczurek
twojbrat@...

----------
From: "Jon Zuck" <frimmin@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...
Date: Dec Fri, 2000, 21:04




(Note: Jerome font has been extensively revised to connect letters with the full expressiveness of the Revised Shaw alphabet. Please download the new version from the Files folder. Give it a try before you translate this to Ghoti:-)




eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540659/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

On 12/15/00 at 11:18 PM Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:

Dear John,
At what site (URL) can I download this Jerome font?
Daniel Szczurek
twojbrat@... <mailto:twojbrat@...>


www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows <http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows> I believe is where you'll find it...

D.M.Falk



eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540657/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

Dear John,
At what site (URL) can I download this Jerome font?
Daniel Szczurek
twojbrat@... <mailto:twojbrat@...>


www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows <http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows> I believe is where you'll find it...

D.M.Falk

(Sorry for the roman which follows, but I've done no Christmas shopping yet. 'naf sed!)
Exactly. I plan a few more changes, mostly related to spacing, but I feel it's nearly finished. At that time, I will change the name to "Kingsley."

The new font has all the letterforms which occur in the Quickscript Manual: including "half-letters" (a devised which creates some remarkable calligraphic word-shapes, and takes handwriting Shaw up to shorthand speed), alternate forms of Nun, Ado, and Thither for better connections in certain situations, as well as a few "non-Shaw" letters for uniquely Gaelic sounds, and two (highly controversial and highly optional!) forms of X that are speedy replacements for "ks" and "gz" combinations. In addition, Paige Gabhart of this list, a decades-long user of the alphabet, and erstwhile acquaintance of Read himself, created two additional half-letters (tested through years of use) which are incorporated into what I believe we'll be able to present soon as a much-more clearly defined alphabet worthy of computer screens, printouts, and typefaces, as well as being a superb handwriting and a personal shorthand.

A quick demonstration:
another world = anuHD wxld=
anaHD wDld = uGaKD @Dld
two words virtually becoming two beautiful, nearly unbroken lines with the alternate forms of ADO/UP, alternate NUN, connecting THITHER, and "half" WIN. These letters are "off the map," and are probably inappropriate for basic Shavian-wide communication, but I don't think their beauty can be denied. Also, other than our rather small little cyberworld, the only way to use Shavian communication at present is personally. Read's revision of the Shaw alphabet is simply pure joy to write. I just encountered it about three weeks ago. (I created the first version of Jerome only two days after I received the Quickscript Manual), but already I can write at 20-25 wpm in it. Within a couple of weeks, I expect to be able to write in it as fast or faster than roman, in which time I'll use it as the primary hand for my journal. It also has most of the advantages of shorthand systems, and with extended can get nearly up to shorthand speeds, but it remains computer-printable, and at-sight readable by anyone familiar with the letters.

Dan and Gary have discussed extending the abbreviations QM slightly extends the range of what he apparenly hoped would become standard abbreviations:
Hence, in addition to H (the) v (of) t (to) n (and)
also: f (for) b (be) i (it) and z (is). Read states that nnn (and-and-and) had become the Shavian handwriting abbreviation for etc. All of the four new single-letter abbreviations above were strongly hinted at in the preface to Androcles, and are absolutely self-evident in context. Some of you may have noticed my use of them in posts. It was the consensus of those of us working on the presentation of Read's revised Shaw alphabet, (I jokingly call us "The International Read Alphabet Standards Consortium") that these are appropriate for even "formal" Shavian writing, and should be given priority of the scores of shorthand-like abbreviations Read recommended which seem more appropriate for personal writing only.


The following is Hamlet's soliliquy in the extended Second Shaw alphabet. A few connections don't show in Windows programs at certain sizes. You may want to print it out. (It always connects well in printing!)
t b, P not t b, --HaT iz H kwescG.
`eKD 'tiz nOblD in H mFnd t safD
H sliNL n ArOz v Q]rEJus fPcan,
P t tEk Rmz ageGst a sI V [rablz,
n bF apOzN, end Hem? --t dF, --t slIp,--
no mP; n bF a slIp t sE wI end
H hRtEk n H TQzand nAcDl Soks
HAt fleS z X t. 'tiz a koGsumESG
divQtli t b wiSt. t dF, --t slIp;--
t slIp! pDcAns t drIm:--F, HX'z H rab;
n iG HAt slIp v deT ~a[ drImz mE kum,
`eG wI hAv Safld of His mPtl kql,
must giv us pYL: Kx'z H ris]ekt
HAt mEks kalAmi[i v sO loN lFf;
fP hM wUd bX H `ips n skPnz v
H o]resD'z roN, H ]rQd mAn'z kontVmli.
H pANL v dispFzad luv, H lY'z dilE,
H insOlans v ofis, n H spDnz
HAt ]ESant mXit v H an@DKi [Eks,
`eG hI himself mF[ hiz oG kwFItus mEk
wiT a bX boBkiG? hM wUd fRdlz bX,
t grant n swet andD a wCi lFf,
ba[ HAt H dred V sumTiN AftD deT --
H andiskuvDd kan[ri, frum hMz bMDn
nO [rAvalD ritDnz, --pazlz H wil,
n mEks us rAKD bX HoL ilz wI hAv
HAn flF t aKDz KAt wI nO not V?
Hus koGSGs daz mEk kQ@DdL v us Yl;
n Hus H nEtiv hV v resOlMSG
z siklIB P wiT H ]El kAst V Tyt;
n eGtD]rFzL v grEt ]iT n mOmant,
wiT Tis riRd, HXr kDants tDn urF,
n lML H nEm v AkSG. --soft V GQ!
H fX /OfIlW. --/nimf, iG KF Pisanz
b Yl mF sinz rimembDd.

(eèFtN, ha?)


---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Falk <mailto:quozl1@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 4:33 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


On 12/15/00 at 11:18 PM Daniel G. Szczurek wrote:

Dear John,
At what site (URL) can I download this Jerome font?
Daniel Szczurek
twojbrat@... <mailto:twojbrat@...>


www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows <http://www.egroups.com/files/shavian/fonts/windows> I believe is where you'll find it...

D.M.Falk




eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540652/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

(Note: Jerome font has been extensively revised to connect letters with the full expressiveness of the Revised Shaw alphabet. Please download the new version from the Files folder. Give it a try before you translate this to Ghoti:-)

/hV,
F dOn't sI H pqnt v trFN t avqd H wandDful letDz "C" and "W." Hoz R ekstImlI Vsfl ligacDz (n F rIalI mist Hem in H wDd "sCrWsli." spelN i "sIarIaslI" mEd i lUk lFk a hPibli difikalt wDd wic i izan't. Hoz kambFnd letDz YkD in H /sekant /SY Alfabet Az wel, YlHo HE arn't enMmDEtd Az letDz pD sE. nevDHles, HE sEv tIM, spEs, klXrifF H nambD v silabalz, n briN a dilFtfl hint v H "silAbalXrI" konsept tM SY-lnd!

ummm... F'v trFd mF best t undDstAnd wot V rOt Just Hen. F agrI /ks iz verI similD t /SEvIan, sO HAt helps.

F nO loNgD trF t amit 'C' - F agrI HAt it iz VsfUl, n it iz YlsO a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ. but H letD 'W' F kAnot JustifF VziN enIwX, bikoz F simplI dM not sE HAt sQnd enIwX in mF spIc - F OnlI evD sE 'Ia' P 'ja', sO HOz R H kombinESanz F Vz. it iz H OnlI kAriktD in /SEvIan HAt F kAn nevD fFnd a Vs fP in mF rFtiN.

n F kAnot aksept VziN it fP a kombinESan v sQndz (H 'Ia' in '/SEvIan', 'VkrEnIan', 'sCIaslI') HAt iz hRdlI a speSal kEs wxHI v an ekstra kAriktD. HAt sQnd iz verI obvIaslI tM fOnImz, n hRdlI wxHI v an ikstra letD. it mFt posiblI mEk TiNz 0.01% kwikD, a frAkSanalI SPtD wE v rFtiN it, but F kynt JustifF enI uHD rIzanz fP dMiN it. fxHDmP, F'd RgV HAt 'W' iz not dizFnd t reprazent 'Ia' enIwE, uHDwFz it wUd bI a ligacD v 'I' n 'a', not 'i' n 'a'; asVmiN F'm rFt, F kAnot fFnd a siNgal instans wen F'd nId t Vz suc a fOnIm.

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

<snip>

ummm... F'v trFd mF best t undDstAnd wot V rOt Just Hen. F agrI /ks iz verI similD t /SEvIan, sO HAt helps.

F nO loNgD trF t amit 'C' - F agrI HAt it iz VsfUl, n it iz YlsO a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ. but H letD 'W' F kAnot JustifF VziN enIwX, bikoz F simplI dM not sE HAt sQnd enIwX in mF spIc - F OnlI evD sE 'Ia' P 'ja', sO HOz R H kombinESanz F Vz. it iz H OnlI kAriktD in /SEvIan HAt F kAn nevD fFnd a Vs fP in mF rFtiN.

n F kAnot aksept VziN it fP a kombinESan v sQndz (H 'Ia' in '/SEvIan', 'VkrEnIan', 'sCIaslI') HAt iz hRdlI a speSal kEs wxHI v an ekstra kAriktD. HAt sQnd iz verI obvIaslI tM fOnImz, n hRdlI wxHI v an ikstra letD. it mFt posiblI mEk TiNz 0.01% kwikD, a frAkSanalI SPtD wE v rFtiN it, but F kynt JustifF enI uHD rIzanz fP dMiN it. fxHDmP, F'd RgV HAt 'W' iz not dizFnd t reprazent 'Ia' enIwE, uHDwFz it wUd bI a ligacD v 'I' n 'a', not 'i' n 'a'; asVmiN F'm rFt, F kAnot fFnd a siNgal instans wen F'd nId t Vz suc a fOnIm.

it had ben mF prAktis t let "W" stand fP "I" + "a", but F kAn sI yP pqnt. n in prAktis F VZMelI fFnd mFself agonFziN OvX weHX P not t Vz it in Ic kEs wX its posibl Vs kumz up. F TiNk F hAv t agrI HAt F'm betX Yf wiTQt it. H OnlI oHX kwescunabl kXektX, in mF mind, iz "V" wic is noTiN mP HAn H ligacX f "j" n "M". it sEvz wun kIstrOk in tFpiN, but in hAndrFtiN probiblI mEks nO difxens. F dM Vz it, but it sImz sMpxflMes. in fakt, it mFt Ivn bI speld "IM", making "j" supxflMes az wel. "dM IM liv in a IelO submDIn?"

--gXI


eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540655/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

/gXi n /hV,

F undDstAnd jP pqnts, but H /SY Alfabets R not teknikali fonetik, but fonImik. samwan rIsantlI pOstd H definiSn v a fOnIm Az a sINl Vnit v sQnd knsIvd Az suc bF a spIc kmVnitI. rImembx, F waz H gF hM lAst manT hM sMn t dM awE wiH q, n Q bIkuz HE wx difToNz! if V wynt t get teknikl, j izn't a konsanant but a semI-vQl, YlwEz Vzd t glFd intM P awE from anoHx vQl. but evri kid in skMl hM lDns /INliS tiNks v V Az a "lYN U." it mEks eminant sens t hAv a fonImik letD fP it.

H kEs fP difendN w iz hRdD, but His iz it: it's simplI kMl. F agrI HAt it's not a Vnit v sQnd uZMali knsIvd Az suc, but nFHD R , x, X, C, R, or P! F knsidD it a kMl TiN t hAv ligacDz fP HIz frIkwant kombinESnz v sQndz. nP dM F knsidD it impPtant fP it t lUk fP I + a insted v i+a. H sQnd iz apXant from H nEm v H letD, n H letD iz "bicin'!" F agrI HAt H fDst pRt v H letD sQndz mP lFk I HAn I, n pDhAps it kUd'v bI mP krIEtd Az An I+a ligacD, but

/Read sImd t wynt t avqd reprisentN ani sQndz Az bIiN mP strest HAn wot HE R. sDtanlI F dOn't sE H I P I in "/SEvWn" Az klClI Az H I in "sI". it's YlsO mP fPwDd HAn a simpl klozd I Az in "sit". F lFk H fAkt HAt /Read Xrd on H sFd v reprizentd spIc a tAd les strest HAn it iz, rAHD HAn wiH An RtifiSl klXitI n stres on pEpD kmpXd t wot wI AkcMalI sE.

wiH w, Qx uHx difToNz E, q, q, F, V, O, n x, X, C, R, P fPmz, wI hAv An Alfabet wX mOst kompleks vQlz n glFdz R reprizentd bF a sINl kXaktD, sO Onli rXlI dM tO v Qx vQl/difToN simbalz nId t cum tMgeHx. uZMali evri silabl iz klClI indikEtd bF Just wun "vQl." H regVlXitI v H altDnESn v vQlz n konsanants in /SEvWn skript iz amEzN. anlFk H AganFzN wE wI reprizent difToNz n trifToNz

wen F vizitd H Unifon websFt, F sY wat iz definatlI a mP AmacDiS atempt At a fonImik Alfabet HAn /SEvWn. Yl vQlz R klC, sINl entitIz. nuTiN reprizents H rWl lEzinas v spIc, fP instans, HE reprizent "fFr" Az fFr, end v stPi, insted v H sataltI v /SEvWn "fFD."

sO F hC a bit v An /amerikan "hilbilI" Aksent wen F rId "SEv-I-an" insted v "/SEvWn." n /gXi, dM V rWli wynt us t TiNk V gO arQnd sEiN I-M instead v V?

Gary and Hugh,

I understand your points, but the Shaw alphabets are not technically phonetic, but phonemic. Someone recently posted the definition of a phoneme as a single unit of sound conceived as such by a speech community. Remember, I was the guy who last month who wanted to do away with q, and Q because they were diphthongs! If you want to get technical, j isn't a consonant but a semi-vowel, always used to glide into or away from another vowel. But every kid in school who learns English thinks of V as a "long U." It makes eminent sense to have a phonemic letter for it.

The case for defending W is harder, but this is it: It's simply cool. I agree that it's not a unit of sound usually conceived as such, but neither are , x, X, C, or P! I consider it a cool thing to have ligatures for these frequent combinations of sounds. Nor do I consider it important for it to look for I + a instead of i+a. The sound is apparent from the name of the letter, and the letter is "bitchin'!" I agree that the first part of the letter sounds more like I than i, and perhaps it could've be more created as an I+a ligature, but Read seemed to want to avoid representing any sounds as being more stressed than what they are. Certainly I don't say the i or I in "Shavian" as clearly as the I in "see." It's also more forward than a simple closed i as in "sit." I like the fact that Read erred on the side of represented speech as a tad less stressed than it is, rather than with an artificial clarity and stress on paper compared to what we actually say.

With W, our other diphthongs E, q, Q, F, V, O, and x, X, D, R, P forms, we have an alphabet where most complex vowels and glides are represented by a single character, so only rarely do two of our vowel/diphthong symbols need to come together. Usually every syllable is clearly indicated by just one "vowel." The regularity of the alternation of vowels and consonants in Shavian script is amazing. unlike the agonzing way we represent dipthongs and trithongs When I visited the Unifon website, I see what is definitely a more amateurish attempt at a phonemic alphabet than Shavian. All vowels are clear, single entities. Nothing represents the real laziness of speech, for instance, they represent "Fire" as fFr, end of story, instead of the subtlety of Shavian "fFD."

So I hear a bit of an American hillbilly accent when I read "Shav-ee-an" instead of "Shavian." And Gary, do you really want us to think you go around saying I-M instead of V? :-)



---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

(Note: Jerome font has been extensively revised to connect letters with the full expressiveness of the Revised Shaw alphabet. Please download the new version from the Files folder. Give it a try before you translate this to Ghoti:-)

/hV,
F dOn't sI H pqnt v trFN t avqd H wandDful letDz "C" and "W." Hoz R ekstImlI Vsfl ligacDz (n F rIalI mist Hem in H wDd "sCrWsli." spelN i "sIarIaslI" mEd i lUk lFk a hPibli difikalt wDd wic i izan't. Hoz kambFnd letDz YkD in H /sekant /SY Alfabet Az wel, YlHo HE arn't enMmDEtd Az letDz pD sE. nevDHles, HE sEv tIM, spEs, klXrifF H nambD v silabalz, n briN a dilFtfl hint v H "silAbalXrI" konsept tM SY-lnd!

ummm... F'v trFd mF best t undDstAnd wot V rOt Just Hen. F agrI /ks iz verI similD t /SEvIan, sO HAt helps.

F nO loNgD trF t amit 'C' - F agrI HAt it iz VsfUl, n it iz YlsO a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ. but H letD 'W' F kAnot JustifF VziN enIwX, bikoz F simplI dM not sE HAt sQnd enIwX in mF spIc - F OnlI evD sE 'Ia' P 'ja', sO HOz R H kombinESanz F Vz. it iz H OnlI kAriktD in /SEvIan HAt F kAn nevD fFnd a Vs fP in mF rFtiN.

n F kAnot aksept VziN it fP a kombinESan v sQndz (H 'Ia' in '/SEvIan', 'VkrEnIan', 'sCIaslI') HAt iz hRdlI a speSal kEs wxHI v an ekstra kAriktD. HAt sQnd iz verI obvIaslI tM fOnImz, n hRdlI wxHI v an ikstra letD. it mFt posiblI mEk TiNz 0.01% kwikD, a frAkSanalI SPtD wE v rFtiN it, but F kynt JustifF enI uHD rIzanz fP dMiN it. fxHDmP, F'd RgV HAt 'W' iz not dizFnd t reprazent 'Ia' enIwE, uHDwFz it wUd bI a ligacD v 'I' n 'a', not 'i' n 'a'; asVmiN F'm rFt, F kAnot fFnd a siNgal instans wen F'd nId t Vz suc a fOnIm.


eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540659/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

Lionel, R.S., and others

Here is a relatively compact correspondence table used to emphasize the fact that
English speech can be transcribed into a variety of different writing systems.
Changing the writing system has no impact on the way people pronounce English.

Can someone check it over for accuracy?
The table can be freely used for scholarly purposes.
If someone has an application for it, I would like to hear about it.

Thank you.

Steve Bett

It looks like in your example sentence, you have Jumpt in Shavian, but [jumps] in IPA.

BTW, what's all the strange stuff at the bottom border?
---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin

It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Bett <mailto:stbett@...>
To: ghoti@... <mailto:ghoti@...> ; RSRICHMOND@aol.com <mailto:RSRICHMOND@aol.com> ; shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 9:58 PM
Subject: [shavian] IPA - Shavian correspondence table.

Lionel, R.S., and others

Here is a relatively compact correspondence table used to emphasize the fact that
English speech can be transcribed into a variety of different writing systems.
Changing the writing system has no impact on the way people pronounce English.

Can someone check it over for accuracy?
The table can be freely used for scholarly purposes.
If someone has an application for it, I would like to hear about it.

Thank you.

Steve Bett




________________________________








eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540657/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>

/gXi n /hV,

F undDstAnd jP pqnts, but H /SY Alfabets R not teknikali fonetik, but fonImik. samwan rIsantlI pOstd H definiSn v a fOnIm Az a sINl Vnit v sQnd knsIvd Az suc bF a spIc kmVnitI. rImembx, F waz H gF hM lAst manT hM sMn t dM awE wiH q, n Q bIkuz HE wx difToNz! if V wynt t get teknikl, j izn't a konsanant but a semI-vQl, YlwEz Vzd t glFd intM P awE from anoHx vQl. but evri kid in skMl hM lDns /INliS tiNks v V Az a "lYN U." it mEks eminant sens t hAv a fonImik letD fP it.

H kEs fP difendN w iz hRdD, but His iz it: it's simplI kMl. F agrI HAt it's not a Vnit v sQnd uZMali knsIvd Az suc, but nFHD R , x, X, C, R, or P! F knsidD it a kMl TiN t hAv ligacDz fP HIz frIkwant kombinESnz v sQndz. nP dM F knsidD it impPtant fP it t lUk fP I + a insted v i+a. H sQnd iz apXant from H nEm v H letD, n H letD iz "bicin'!" F agrI HAt H fDst pRt v H letD sQndz mP lFk I HAn I, n pDhAps it kUd'v bI mP krIEtd Az An I+a ligacD, but

/Read sImd t wynt t avqd reprisentN ani sQndz Az bIiN mP strest HAn wot HE R. sDtanlI F dOn't sE H I P I in "/SEvWn" Az klClI Az H I in "sI". it's YlsO mP fPwDd HAn a simpl klozd I Az in "sit". F lFk H fAkt HAt /Read Xrd on H sFd v reprizentd spIc a tAd les strest HAn it iz, rAHD HAn wiH An RtifiSl klXitI n stres on pEpD kmpXd t wot wI AkcMalI sE.

wiH w, Qx uHx difToNz E, q, q, F, V, O, n x, X, C, R, P fPmz, wI hAv An Alfabet wX mOst kompleks vQlz n glFdz R reprizentd bF a sINl kXaktD, sO Onli rXlI dM tO v Qx vQl/difToN simbalz nId t cum tMgeHx. uZMali evri silabl iz klClI indikEtd bF Just wun "vQl." H regVlXitI v H altDnESn v vQlz n konsanants in /SEvWn skript iz amEzN. anlFk H AganFzN wE wI reprizent difToNz n trifToNz

wen F vizitd H Unifon websFt, F sY wat iz definatlI a mP AmacDiS atempt At a fonImik Alfabet HAn /SEvWn. Yl vQlz R klC, sINl entitIz. nuTiN reprizents H rWl lEzinas v spIc, fP instans, HE reprizent "fFr" Az fFr, end v stPi, insted v H sataltI v /SEvWn "fFD."

sO F hC a bit v An /amerikan "hilbilI" Aksent wen F rId "SEv-I-an" insted v "/SEvWn." n /gXi, dM V rWli wynt us t TiNk V gO arQnd sEiN I-M instead v V?

Gary and Hugh,

I understand your points, but the Shaw alphabets are not technically phonetic, but phonemic. Someone recently posted the definition of a phoneme as a single unit of sound conceived as such by a speech community. Remember, I was the guy who last month who wanted to do away with q, and Q because they were diphthongs! If you want to get technical, j isn't a consonant but a semi-vowel, always used to glide into or away from another vowel. But every kid in school who learns English thinks of V as a "long U." It makes eminent sense to have a phonemic letter for it.

The case for defending W is harder, but this is it: It's simply cool. I agree that it's not a unit of sound usually conceived as such, but neither are , x, X, C, or P! I consider it a cool thing to have ligatures for these frequent combinations of sounds. Nor do I consider it important for it to look for I + a instead of i+a. The sound is apparent from the name of the letter, and the letter is "bitchin'!" I agree that the first part of the letter sounds more like I than i, and perhaps it could've be more created as an I+a ligature, but Read seemed to want to avoid representing any sounds as being more stressed than what they are. I don't say the i or I in "Shavian" as clearly as the I in "see." It's also more forward than a simple closed i as in "sit." I like the fact that Read erred on the side of representing speech as a tad less stressed than it is, rather than with an artificial clarity and stress on paper compared to what we actually say.

With W, our other diphthongs E, q, Q, F, V, O, and x, X, D, R, P forms, we have an alphabet where most complex vowels and glides are represented by a single character, so only rarely do two of our vowel/diphthong symbols need to come together. Usually every syllable is clearly indicated by just one "vowel." The regularity of the alternation of vowels and consonants in Shavian script is amazing. unlike the agonzing way we represent dipthongs and trithongs When I visited the Unifon website, I see what is definitely a more amateurish attempt at a phonemic alphabet than Shavian. All vowels are clear, single entities. Nothing represents the real laziness of speech, for instance, they represent "Fire" as fFr, end of story, instead of the subtlety of Shavian "fFD."

So I hear a bit of an American hillbilly accent when I read "Shav-ee-an" instead of "Shavian." And Gary, do you really want us to think you go around saying I-M instead of V? :-)

---
Shalom v'Tovah,
Jon Zuck
Web URL: http://surf.to/frimmin


It is more important to love much than to think much.
Always do that which most impels you to love.
--St. Teresa of Avila

----- Original Message -----
From: Hugh Birkenhead <mailto:mixsynth@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...


----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Zuck <mailto:frimmin@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2000 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: [shavian] Change of topic...

(Note: Jerome font has been extensively revised to connect letters with the full expressiveness of the Revised Shaw alphabet. Please download the new version from the Files folder. Give it a try before you translate this to Ghoti:-)

/hV,
F dOn't sI H pqnt v trFN t avqd H wandDful letDz "C" and "W." Hoz R ekstImlI Vsfl ligacDz (n F rIalI mist Hem in H wDd "sCrWsli." spelN i "sIarIaslI" mEd i lUk lFk a hPibli difikalt wDd wic i izan't. Hoz kambFnd letDz YkD in H /sekant /SY Alfabet Az wel, YlHo HE arn't enMmDEtd Az letDz pD sE. nevDHles, HE sEv tIM, spEs, klXrifF H nambD v silabalz, n briN a dilFtfl hint v H "silAbalXrI" konsept tM SY-lnd!

ummm... F'v trFd mF best t undDstAnd wot V rOt Just Hen. F agrI /ks iz verI similD t /SEvIan, sO HAt helps.

F nO loNgD trF t amit 'C' - F agrI HAt it iz VsfUl, n it iz YlsO a verI koman sQnd in H lANgwiJ. but H letD 'W' F kAnot JustifF VziN enIwX, bikoz F simplI dM not sE HAt sQnd enIwX in mF spIc - F OnlI evD sE 'Ia' P 'ja', sO HOz R H kombinESanz F Vz. it iz H OnlI kAriktD in /SEvIan HAt F kAn nevD fFnd a Vs fP in mF rFtiN.

n F kAnot aksept VziN it fP a kombinESan v sQndz (H 'Ia' in '/SEvIan', 'VkrEnIan', 'sCIaslI') HAt iz hRdlI a speSal kEs wxHI v an ekstra kAriktD. HAt sQnd iz verI obvIaslI tM fOnImz, n hRdlI wxHI v an ikstra letD. it mFt posiblI mEk TiNz 0.01% kwikD, a frAkSanalI SPtD wE v rFtiN it, but F kynt JustifF enI uHD rIzanz fP dMiN it. fxHDmP, F'd RgV HAt 'W' iz not dizFnd t reprazent 'Ia' enIwE, uHDwFz it wUd bI a ligacD v 'I' n 'a', not 'i' n 'a'; asVmiN F'm rFt, F kAnot fFnd a siNgal instans wen F'd nId t Vz suc a fOnIm.




eGroups Sponsor

Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here! <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=168680.1256385.2848396.908943/D=egroupmail/S=1700619718:N/A=540656/?http://www.net2phone.com/jump/campaign>