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Hi Ethan and Jeff
I understand about 20 percent of the Canadian population still makes
the wine-whine distinction. Star Raven indicated she is one of a
similar group in the United staites.
Perhaps some one who hears the hw sound, can provide a few more
examples.
w-sound wh-sound
wine whine
Wales whales
we'll, wheel N/A
wind (as in crank) wind (as in fair winds)
why why
wish whoosh
whew
whiff
witch which
what
when
where
whip
wipe
wheel wheeze
whoa
whiz, wizard
whisper
whimsy whimper

Both pronunciations seem acceptable for the word "why".
I don't hear any other words that are pronounced with
an initial hw sound. Any other additions. Please respond.
It's driving me crazy.

Regards, Paul V.
_________________attached_______________________
--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethan@...> wrote:
>
> Ethan wrote:
> > jeff wrote:
> >> On Monday 2008 July 07 21:32:41 Ethan wrote:
> > <snip>
> >>> in Shavian. While the unvoiced w sound is heard after most
unvoiced
> >>> consonants, this still does not make it a distinct phoneme, as
there are
> >>> no examples where voiced/unvoiced w makes a difference in
meaning.
> >> witch / which?
> >
> > Witch begins with a W sound, Which begins with an H sound.
> > That is, ð`¢ð`¦ð`—/ð`£ð`¢ð`¦ð`— (wich/hwich). Like I
said:
> >
> >>> The
> >>> difference always depends on another letter.
> >
> > In this case it's the letter ð`£ (ha-ha). You wouldn't say
that
> > ð`¢ð`¦ð`—/ð`•ð`¢ð`¦ð`— (witch/switch) was a voiceless w
pair would you? Why
> > ð`¢ð`¦ð`—/ð`£ð`¢ð`¦ð`— (wich/hwich)?
> >
>
> And I should add as well that in many dialects, witch/which is not
a
> minimal pair at all, but they are both pronounced the same. In
fact,
> the only reason why I distinguish them is because my father and
> grandfather distinguished them in their speech. My mother did
not, and
> I can go either way when I talk!
>
>
> --
> ('> He shall cover thee with his feathers, <')
> /)) and under his wings shalt thou trust: ((\
> //'' his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. ''\\
>

Hwaet!

I make the distinction between the voiced and voiceless sounds in each
of these sets. About the only wh word I don't pronounce with the
voiceless sound is "whether". I recall being corrected for this by my
parents, and I also remember a teacher in 1947 (in Atlanta, no less)
teaching a mnemonic verse that ended "We'll weather the weather,
whatever the weather, whether we like it or not."

My parents were from western Oregon, and that's the source of my
idiolect. My mother's maternal line were Scots (at least some of them
through Nova Scotia), and that may have been the source of her clear
distinction of the two sounds, a phonemic distinction that's clearly
disappearing from English.

I think I'll eat a hlaf of bread, put on my hroth jammies, and take a
hnap. Maybe my Hmong (or Hmoob) neighbors will wake me up.

Bob Richmond
Knoxville, Tennessee
******************************************************************
On 10/13/08, paul vandenbrink <vandenbrinkg@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Ethan and Jeff
> I understand about 20 percent of the Canadian population still makes
> the wine-whine distinction. Star Raven indicated she is one of a
> similar group in the United staites.
> Perhaps some one who hears the hw sound, can provide a few more
> examples.
> w-sound wh-sound
> wine whine
> Wales whales
> we'll, wheel N/A
> wind (as in crank) wind (as in fair winds)
> why why
> wish whoosh
> whew
> whiff
> witch which
> what
> when
> where
> whip
> wipe
> wheel wheeze
> whoa
> whiz, wizard
> whisper
> whimsy whimper
>
> Both pronunciations seem acceptable for the word "why".
> I don't hear any other words that are pronounced with
> an initial hw sound. Any other additions. Please respond.
> It's driving me crazy.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
> _________________attached_______________________
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Ethan <ethan@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ethan wrote:
> > > jeff wrote:
> > >> On Monday 2008 July 07 21:32:41 Ethan wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > >>> in Shavian. While the unvoiced w sound is heard after most
> unvoiced
> > >>> consonants, this still does not make it a distinct phoneme, as
> there are
> > >>> no examples where voiced/unvoiced w makes a difference in
> meaning.
> > >> witch / which?
> > >
> > > Witch begins with a W sound, Which begins with an H sound.
> > > That is, ð `¢ð `¦ð `—/ð `£ð `¢ð `¦ð `— (wich/hwich). Like I
> said:
> > >
> > >>> The
> > >>> difference always depends on another letter.
> > >
> > > In this case it's the letter ð `£ (ha-ha). You wouldn't say
> that
> > > ð `¢ð `¦ð `—/ð `•ð `¢ð `¦ð `— (witch/switch) was a voiceless w
> pair would you? Why
> > > ð `¢ð `¦ð `—/ð `£ð `¢ð `¦ð `— (wich/hwich)?
> > >
> >
> > And I should add as well that in many dialects, witch/which is not
> a
> > minimal pair at all, but they are both pronounced the same. In
> fact,
> > the only reason why I distinguish them is because my father and
> > grandfather distinguished them in their speech. My mother did
> not, and
> > I can go either way when I talk!
> >
> >
> > --
> > ('> He shall cover thee with his feathers, <')
> > /)) and under his wings shalt thou trust: ((\
> > //'' his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. ''\\
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Besides:
what/watt, wheel/we'll, when/wen, where/(some pronunciations of)"were",
whether/weather, which/witch, whine/wine, and why/wye,

There are:
whale/wail, whang/Wang, wheal/weal, whence/wince, whet/wet, whey/way,
Whig/wig, while/wile, whir/were, whish/wish, whit/wit, white/wight,
whither/wither, whoa/woe,

Some words that may not have perfect matching contrasts but almost do:
whack (what the Mafia does to rivals)/wacky, whimper/wimp, whirl or
whorl/world, whist/wistful,

Other hw- words without any minimal contrast (known to me) are:
wham, wharf, wheat (weet sounds inedible to me), wheedle (if you
tried to weedle someone to do something, would it work?), wheeze,
whelk, whelm (as in overwhelm), whelp, whew, whiff (could you say,
I caught a wiff of something?), whiffletree, whim, whimper, whimsical,
whimsy, whinny, whip (you couldn't wip someone, could you?), whippet,
whipsaw, whisk, whisker, whisk(e)y, whisper (wisper, which would
introduce a voiced consonant into this word, is a contradiction in
terms), whistle, Whitsun, whittle (I dare you to ask someone who
whittles if he were a wittler), whiz, whoop, whoosh, and whopper.

Some of these words are onomatopoetic, but would no longer be if the
unvoiced /hw/ is allowed to decay to voiced /w/:
whish, whack, whir, whirl, wham, wheeze, whew, whinny, whish, whisk,
whiz, and whoosh.

Which Whigs wear wigs, and why?

whoppingly,
dshep

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
--- "devin freeman" <tnoradan@...> wrote:

> TAnk jM, broHer d, fOr AdiN H wOrd "wen" t mF vOkAbjMlari.

Take no offence; I merely attempt from time to time to introduce a bit
of playfulness into the sometimes overly serious tone of our group's
intermittent commentary. However, I confess that I took the opportunity
to champion a cause worthy (I believe) of support, that is, that the
initial aspirates of, as you noticed, the keywords of journalism--the
simple questions that establish a framework for all else--should be
preserved. The other causes I feel occasionally obliged to argue for
are--well, you don't want to know.

I also wished to respond in kind, that is to say, in Shavian, but a
recent change of internet service provider has left me groping with
the peculiarities of a different mail system that so far have thwarted
my limited abilities in application management.

> F hAv hAd won on mF left fOrRm fOr several monTs, At lIst. F Just
> never nM hhhhhwat t kYl it.

May it soon get better.

> Az fOr H \h\ sQnd in H stAndard kwesconz everi Jurnalist Asks, F hAd
> never herd HIz spOken until /Ydri /hepburn ekspresd Hem in suc a komIdik
> mAner in "mF fEr lEdi."
>
> F hAv never ben awEr v hIriN Hem in /amerikAn spIc; but E supOz wI Onli
> hIr wat wI ekspekt t hIr.

This pronunciation does occur, and much more frequently than you might
imagine, in certain regional accents, and especially in the speech of
anyone over, say, fifty years of age. It was once near universal, and
for what it's worth, prescribed in yesterday's dictionaries. But you
are entirely right that expectations determine perception, in this case,
perceived speech. If you don't make the distinction yourself, you aren't
likely to hear it in the speech of others, and this is one of the ways
in which language changes.

quixotically,
dshep



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If the junior senator from Illinois is successful in his bid
for the American presidency as current polls indicate, he
will be I believe the first President, apart from the obvious
attribute everyone is aware of, to eschew--I have never
before had the opportunity to use that word, so I shall
repeat it--to eschew the initial aspiration of the hwat/
hwen/hwere/hwy words. So it looks like there will be a
change in the next administration, even if most people
would not consider this one to be especially important,
or even notice it. However, I daresay every president
before Kennedy and certainly all presidents after, and
perhaps he too--I'm not sure--have pronounced those
words with a pronounced /hw/. Just listen to the current
president--I realize fewer and fewer people do so these
days, but nevertheless--or his predecessor, still a popular
public speaker. This should not surprise anyone as both
grew up in a part of the United States where the /hw/
pronunciation is the norm rather than the exception.

But this particular change will not take place without a
fight. The senior senator from Arizona in a recent rally
clearly, if rashly, vowed (apparently in tomorrow's debate)
to "whip (yes, very definitely hwip) his (opponent's)
you-know-what". Hwether he will be able to do this or
not remains to be seen, but his unvoiced enunciation
of this avowal's keyword was manifestly distinct.

hwimsically,
dshep

dshep:

I enjoyed your hwimsy and cannot imagine anyone would take offense at it.

To those of us who continue to make the /hw/ distinction, not doing so
seems unimaginable. I believe Star said she had modified Shavian to add
that very distinction. It is one of the things I find appealing in
Quikscript. Apparently Read decided while working on QS that leaving
/hw/ out of Shavian had been a mistake even if the phoneme had become an
anachronism in England by that time.

I have four brothers who all grew up in the same house with the same
parents. I am the eldest. The second child and I both use /hw/,
whereas the three younger children do not. That seems odd, does it
not? It suggests the hypothesis that despite the family being the
child's first linguistic environment, it is not always the most
influential in the development of his idiolect.

Until three or four years ago, my middle brother had no idea there was
such a distinction. In fact, he viewed the /h/ in the /hw/ phoneme as a
silent letter and claimed he had never noticed that anyone pronounced
it. At first blush, that struck me as curiously myopic. It seems we
hear what we expect to hear, not what sounds people actually produce.
On second thought, however, it makes sense, I suppose, since we are busy
discerning meaning rather than tracking the linear flow of phonemes per se.

Paige

dshepx@... wrote:
>
> If the junior senator from Illinois is successful in his bid
> for the American presidency as current polls indicate, he
> will be I believe the first President, apart from the obvious
> attribute everyone is aware of, to eschew--I have never
> before had the opportunity to use that word, so I shall
> repeat it--to eschew the initial aspiration of the hwat/
> hwen/hwere/hwy words. So it looks like there will be a
> change in the next administration, even if most people
> would not consider this one to be especially important,
> or even notice it. However, I daresay every president
> before Kennedy and certainly all presidents after, and
> perhaps he too--I'm not sure--have pronounced those
> words with a pronounced /hw/. Just listen to the current
> president--I realize fewer and fewer people do so these
> days, but nevertheless--or his predecessor, still a popular
> public speaker. This should not surprise anyone as both
> grew up in a part of the United States where the /hw/
> pronunciation is the norm rather than the exception.
>
> But this particular change will not take place without a
> fight. The senior senator from Arizona in a recent rally
> clearly, if rashly, vowed (apparently in tomorrow's debate)
> to "whip (yes, very definitely hwip) his (opponent's)
> you-know-what". Hwether he will be able to do this or
> not remains to be seen, but his unvoiced enunciation
> of this avowal's keyword was manifestly distinct.
>
> hwimsically,
> dshep
>
>

F rErli tEk ofens At AniTiN.

F hAv loN AdmFrd jUr kontribjMSonz t Hiz grMp.

F somtFmz submit QtrEJus "belIv it Or not" segments Just t trF t elisit
responsez.

hAviN ben H hApi konsOsiat v 19 kitenz, hQ kUd F not aprISiEt plEfulnes?

_________tom

--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, dshepx@... wrote:
>
> --- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com,
> --- "devin freeman" tnoradan@ wrote:
>
> > TAnk jM, broHer d, fOr AdiN H wOrd "wen" t mF vOkAbjMlari.
>
> Take no offence; I merely attempt from time to time to introduce a bit
> of playfulness into the sometimes overly serious tone of our group's
> intermittent commentary. However, I confess that I took the
opportunity
> to champion a cause worthy (I believe) of support, that is, that the
> initial aspirates of, as you noticed, the keywords of journalism--the
> simple questions that establish a framework for all else--should be
> preserved. The other causes I feel occasionally obliged to argue for
> are--well, you don't want to know.
>
> I also wished to respond in kind, that is to say, in Shavian, but a
> recent change of internet service provider has left me groping with
> the peculiarities of a different mail system that so far have thwarted
> my limited abilities in application management.
>
> > F hAv hAd won on mF left fOrRm fOr several monTs, At lIst. F Just
> > never nM hhhhhwat t kYl it.
>
> May it soon get better.
>
> > Az fOr H \h\ sQnd in H stAndard kwesconz everi Jurnalist Asks, F hAd
> > never herd HIz spOken until /Ydri /hepburn ekspresd Hem in suc a
komIdik
> > mAner in "mF fEr lEdi."
> >
> > F hAv never ben awEr v hIriN Hem in /amerikAn spIc; but E supOz wI
Onli
> > hIr wat wI ekspekt t hIr.
>
> This pronunciation does occur, and much more frequently than you might
> imagine, in certain regional accents, and especially in the speech of
> anyone over, say, fifty years of age. It was once near universal, and
> for what it's worth, prescribed in yesterday's dictionaries. But you
> are entirely right that expectations determine perception, in this
case,
> perceived speech. If you don't make the distinction yourself, you
aren't
> likely to hear it in the speech of others, and this is one of the ways
> in which language changes.
>
> quixotically,
> dshep
>

personAliti iz a level v dIifFd reAliti n rEnJez from H mOrtal level up
TrM H spiricMal t H atEnment v fFnAliti v personAliti stAtus.

...

reAliti iz subJekt t jMniversal ekspAnSon, personAliti t infinit
diversifikESon.

...

Her iz nO nOn limitESon t its progresiv evolMSon.

...

on eksperienSial levelz Yl personAiti Orderz R asOsiabel n Iven
kOkreESonal.

...

Yl subinfinit Orderz n fEzez v personAliti R asOsiativ.

...

H prI-personal, H personal, n H sMperpersonal R Yl liNkd togeHer in
progresiv acIvment, but never duz H impersonal trAnsmjMt t H personal. .

...

personAliti iz never spontEnius; it iz H gift v H /paradFs foHer.

...

personAliti iz sMperimpOzd upon enerJi, n it iz asOsiEted Onli wiH liviN
enerJi sistemz.

...

H jMniversal foHer iz H sIkret v H reAliti v personAliti, H bestOal, n H
destini v personAliti.

...

H divFn spirit HAt indwelz H mFnd v mAn iz H TYt aJuster.

...

His imOrtal spirit iz prI-personal--not a personAliti, HO destind t
bekom a pRt v H personAliti v H survFviN mOrtal krIcur.

____________person-p8/noradan

...teknoloJi n kreEtiviti

...

a fjM imaJez, a fjM memOrabel akwEntAnsez, a fjM ceriSd frEzez sirkel
arQnd H EJiN rFter'z hed lFk nAts Az hI strOlz TrM H sumertFm wUdz At
glOmiN.

...

hI sits dQn At H wOrd prosesOr'z humiN, ekspektAnt skrIn, fEsiN H stroN
posibiliti HAt hI hAz Ylredi ekspresd wat hI iz strugliN t ekspres agan.

K

mF wOrd prosesOr--a term HAt deskrFbz mI Az wel--iz H lAst v a sIrIz v
instruments v self ekspreSon HAt begAn wiH krEonz n kolOrd pensilz held
in mF cFldiS fist.

...

mF hAndz, somwat grOn, mFgrEted t H kIbOrd v mF moHer'z tFprFter, a
pOrtabel /remiNton, n Hen, skMld in tuc tFpiN, t mF On maSIn, a bEZ
/smiT-kOrOna ekspresli bYt bF loviN pErents fOr mI t tEk t koleJ.

...

F grAdjMEted t An Yfis model, on H premisez v H /nM jOrker mAgazIn, HAt
rOz up, wiH An eksFtiN hIv, from H surfas v a metal desk.

...

bAk in /nM eNglAnd Az a frIlAnser, F invested in An elektrik tFprFter
HAt snAcd H leterz from mF fingertips wiH a SRp, prImacur klAk; it held,
Az wel Az a blAk ribon, a wFt won wiH wic F kUd kOrekt mF mAni erOrz.

...

befOr loN, His klever mekAnizm gEv wE t An Iven mOr hFli evolvd devFs, n
erli /wAN wOrd prosesOr HAt did H tFpiN itself, wiH a mRvelus spId n
infAlibiliti.

...

mF nekst maSIn, An F.bI.em., mEd H /wAN sIm slO n kluNki n hAz ben in
turn sMpersIded bF a /del HAt dIlz in dozenz v tFp fonts n hAz a bilt-in
spel ceker.

...

TrM Yl His relentlesli AdvAnsiN teknoloJi H sEm brEn grOps TrM its
diminiSiN njUronz fOr imaJez n nErativz...

K

in mF On eksperiens, diliJent Az F hAv ben, H erli wOrks remEn H wonz F
Am best nOn bF, n H wonz t wic mF lEter wOrks R unfEvOrabli kompErd...

K

amoN HOz diminiSiN njUronz Her lurks H irASonal hOp HAt H lAst bUk mFt
bI H best.

K --/Jon updFk

Akt 3f

...

pikeriN: gUd-bF, mis dMlitel. [HE SEk hAndz].

...

lFza: [nodiN t H oHerz] gUd-bF, Yl.

...

fredi: [OpeniN H dOr fOr her] R jM wYkiN akros H pRk, mis dMlitel? if
sO--

...

lFza: wYk! not blUdi lFkli. [sensESon]. F Am gOiN in a tAksi. [SI gOz
Qt].

...

/pikeriN gAsps n sits dQn.

/fredi gOz Qt on H bAlkoni t kAc AnoHer glimps v /elFza.

...

misez FnsfOrd hil [suferiN from Sok] wel, F rIli kAnt get jMzd t H nM
wEz.

...

klara: [TrOiN herself diskontentedli intM H /elizabITAn cEr]. O, its Yl
rFt, moma, kwFt rFt.

...

pIpel wil TiNk wI never gO AniwEr Or sI Anibodi if jM R sO Old-fASond.

...

misez FnsfOrd hil: F dErsE F Am veri Old-fASond; but F dM hOp jM wOnt
begin jMziN HAt ekspreSon, /klara.

...

F hAv got akustomd t hIr jM tYkiN abQt men Az roterz, n kYliN everiTiN
filTi n bIstli; HO F dM TiNk it hOribel n unlEdilFk.

...

but His lAst iz rIli tM muc. dOnt jM TiNk sO, /kernal pikeriN?

...

pikeriN: dOnt Ask mI. Fv ben awE in /india fOr several jIrz; n mAnerz
hAv cEnJd sO muc HAt F somtFmz dOnt nO weHer Fm At a respektabel
diner-tEbel Or in a Sip's fOrkAsel.

...

klara: its Yl a mAter v hAbit. Her'z nO rFt Or roN in it.

...

nObodi mInz AniTiN bF it. n it's sO kwEnt, n givz suc a smRt emfasis t
TiNz HAt R not in Hemselvz veri witi. F fFnd H nM smYl tYk delFtful n
kwFt inosent.

...

misez FnsfOrd hil [rFziN] wel, After HAt, F TiNk its tFm fOr us t gO.

...

/pikeriN n /higinz rFz.

...

klara: [rFziN] wI hAv 3 At hOmz t gO t stil.

...

gUd-bF, misez /higinz. gUd-bF, kernal /pikeriN. gUd-bF, profesOr
/higinz.

...

higinz: [komiN grimli At her from H divAn, n akompAnIiN her t H dOr]
gUd-bF. bI Sur jM trF on HAt smYl tYk At H 3 At-hOmz. dOnt bI nervus
abQt it. pic it in stroN.

...

klara: [Yl smFlz] F wil. gud-bF. suc nonsens, Yl His erli /viktOrian
prMderi!

................... /Askason