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--- In shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
>
...
>
> > And thank you for removing many of the balls from 3 to 4; I find 3
> > reasonably readable for short lengths (say, a book or chapter title)
> > but 4 does seem more readable (less distracting) to me for a longer
> > text.
>
> Glad to hear it. Yes, the earlier drafts look very Santa-elfish to me now. ;-)
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>

Michael,

Though I'm surprised to say it, I find the 2nd test most readable of the four (2 thru 5)!

After some examination at different magnifications, I conclude it's because the ball finials contribute to making the letters of a more uniform thickness throughout each stroke, thus better defining both the extent and the shape of each stroke. Put conversely, the extreme thinness of the stroke ends in test 5 makes them almost disappear from my (ancient) sight.

Do you think it possible to make another test like 5, but with strokes which remain somewhat thicker throughout their lengths? With strokes, say, that taper to no less than two-thirds their greatest thickness. (The Shavian sample on the Italian designer's page recently linked to on this forum has constant-width strokes, but that has a very blocky sans effect.) I'd like to see the (tapering) strokes terminated in light slab serifs, too.

Regards,
Yahya

On 15 Aug 2011, at 20:16, yahya_melb wrote:

> Though I'm surprised to say it, I find the 2nd test most readable of the four (2 thru 5)!

There will be a 6. I guess 1 is lost in the mists of time.

> After some examination at different magnifications, I conclude it's because the ball finials contribute to making the letters of a more uniform thickness throughout each stroke, thus better defining both the extent and the shape of each stroke. Put conversely, the extreme thinness of the stroke ends in test 5 makes them almost disappear from my (ancient) sight.

Well, I don't know. This face is based on De Vinne Text. So its serifs and its balls and its vertical weights are those of De Vinne Text.

> Do you think it possible to make another test like 5, but with strokes which remain somewhat thicker throughout their lengths? With strokes, say, that taper to no less than two-thirds their greatest thickness.

I think I will try Philip's previous suggestions first. Doing what you suggest would be a major shift from De Vinne, I think.

> (The Shavian sample on the Italian designer's page recently linked to on this forum has constant-width strokes, but that has a very blocky sans effect.) I'd like to see the (tapering) strokes terminated in light slab serifs, too.

I didn't see that link.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

http://www.evertype.com/fonts/shavian/shavian-test-6.pdf fixes the BIB error and corrects issues with x-height and ascender/descender height.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 13:31, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> http://www.evertype.com/fonts/shavian/shavian-test-6.pdf fixes the BIB error

It does? It still looks as if it curls to the bottom left, rather than
the bottom right as it should to be a 180° rotation of PEEP.

> and corrects issues with x-height and ascender/descender height.

Those do seem improved, from a quick glance.

Thank you!

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

On 17 Aug 2011, at 13:17, Philip Newton wrote:

> >http://www.evertype.com/fonts/shavian/shavian-test-6.pdf fixes the BIB error
>
> It does? It still looks as if it curls to the bottom left, rather than
> the bottom right as it should to be a 180° rotation of PEEP.

Ah you're right; I had fixed it before then overwritten the fix with the old one.

> > and corrects issues with x-height and ascender/descender height.
>
> Those do seem improved, from a quick glance.

:-)

http://www.evertype.com/fonts/shavian/shavian-test-7.pdf modifies the vowels ARE, OR, AIR, ERR. Perhaps this helps the general readability. Please let me know.

Compare however AH and AWE which I did not alter with ARE and OR. What do you think?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 00:46, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> http://www.evertype.com/fonts/shavian/shavian-test-7.pdf modifies the vowels ARE, OR, AIR, ERR. Perhaps this helps the general readability. Please let me know.
>
> Compare however AH and AWE which I did not alter with ARE and OR. What do you think?

I think either version is readable - the -6 versions take a bit more
getting used to, but I think not more than the general level of
differentness and swash-iness/curviness due to the new font.

The change to ARE, OR, AIR, ERR *does* make them inconsistent with
ARRAY and EAR; not sure whether that's something to consider or not.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

On 18 Aug 2011, at 08:46, Philip Newton wrote:

>> http://www.evertype.com/fonts/shavian/shavian-test-7.pdf modifies the vowels ARE, OR, AIR, ERR. Perhaps this helps the general readability. Please let me know.
>>
>> Compare however AH and AWE which I did not alter with ARE and OR. What do you think?
>
> I think either version is readable - the -6 versions take a bit more
> getting used to,

Then perhaps the -7 is better.

> but I think not more than the general level of differentness and swash-iness/curviness due to the new font.
>
> The change to ARE, OR, AIR, ERR *does* make them inconsistent with
> ARRAY and EAR; not sure whether that's something to consider or not.

Both ARRAY and EAR have very wide counters and I think that filling that space a bit is not too bad. So then ARRAY and EAR and AH and AWE have the same feature.

Is IAN too r-like? It could be made out of EAR.

Are we getting near to "go and typeset the book" yet?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 14:29, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> Is IAN too r-like? It could be made out of EAR.

Where is there an IAN? I read the text just now (I had only looked at
bits before) and didn't come across one, at least not consciously.

> Are we getting near to "go and typeset the book" yet?

Whom are you asking? Most of your suggestions have only been evaluated
by one or two people.

Not your fault, I know, but I don't know whether the one or two can
decide what the general Shavian-reading public needs.

Also, what do you think of the DEAD-OOZE kerning of "do" in the second
line? The ball of the consonant seems to touch the serif of the vowel.
(The DEAD-ADO pair in "suddenly" on paragraph 2, line 3 looks better,
for example, or at least I think so.)

Also, the spacing between the KICK and the WOE in "quite" in paragraph
3, line 4 seems rather wide.

Aside from that - while reading the entire text for the first time, I
found that the hardest thing seemed to be the curves at the end of the
quarter-circle vowels... while at the same time I wondered whether
MIME and NUN might not be better off with slight curls at their ends
(similar to how they used to be in early drafts), for consistency. So
I'm not sure what I want or what to recommend on this point.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>

On 19 Aug 2011, at 14:12, Philip Newton wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 14:29, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> > Is IAN too r-like? It could be made out of EAR.
>
> Where is there an IAN? I read the text just now (I had only looked at
> bits before) and didn't come across one, at least not consciously.

There may not be one in the text.

> > Are we getting near to "go and typeset the book" yet?
>
> Whom are you asking? Most of your suggestions have only been evaluated
> by one or two people.
>
> Not your fault, I know, but I don't know whether the one or two can
> decide what the general Shavian-reading public needs.

Nevertheless, I aim to publish Alice in Shavian, and I have offered members of this forum the opportunity to comment on the font design.

> Also, what do you think of the DEAD-OOZE kerning of "do" in the second
> line? The ball of the consonant seems to touch the serif of the vowel.
> (The DEAD-ADO pair in "suddenly" on paragraph 2, line 3 looks better,
> for example, or at least I think so.)
>
> Also, the spacing between the KICK and the WOE in "quite" in paragraph
> 3, line 4 seems rather wide.

I haven't really dealt with kerning at this point.

> Aside from that - while reading the entire text for the first time, I
> found that the hardest thing seemed to be the curves at the end of the
> quarter-circle vowels... while at the same time I wondered whether
> MIME and NUN might not be better off with slight curls at their ends
> (similar to how they used to be in early drafts), for consistency.

Someone found that difficult, I think.

> So I'm not sure what I want or what to recommend on this point.

Hm.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 16:43, Michael Everson <everson@...> wrote:
> On 19 Aug 2011, at 14:12, Philip Newton wrote:
>
>> Aside from that - while reading the entire text for the first time, I
>> found that the hardest thing seemed to be the curves at the end of the
>> quarter-circle vowels... while at the same time I wondered whether
>> MIME and NUN might not be better off with slight curls at their ends
>> (similar to how they used to be in early drafts), for consistency.
>
> Someone found that difficult, I think.

Yes, that was me.

Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>