Shawalphabet YahooGroup Archive Browser

Okay, so here's my problem. I don't have any way to dispay a shavian
font.

--Star

--- "Newton, Philip" <Philip.Newton@...> wrote:

> F dOnt TiNk hI woz VziN eni pDtikVlD font... Just H dIfolt /html
> font. hens,
> hiz letDz apCd Az rOman letDz.
>
> /filip
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hugh Birkenhead [mailto:mixsynth@...]
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 2:44 AM
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] No more Roman please!
>
>
>
> /kRl
>
>
>
> TANkV fP riplFiN in H best Alfabet evD inventad. :) unfPcanatlI it
> kEm Qt in
> /rOman mF end, Az V mFt bI Ebal t sI bilO. wic font wx V VziN? H
> difYlt font
> t Vz hC iz /SY /sAnz /2.
>
>
>
> enIwun els?
>
>
>
> /hV
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: carl easton [mailto:shavintel16@...]
> Sent: 03 March 2005 01:12
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] No more Roman please!
>
>
>
> hF GhV,
>
>
>
> F wil rFt in GSyvWn font kOd fP H grMp. in H GSyvWn fPum in H GSyvWn
> sekSan
> F v kPs rFt in font kOd. sO GhV Fl ekstend mF GSyvWn VsiJ t His grMp
> tM.
>
>
>
> best v rIgRdz,
>
>
>
> GkRal
>
> Hugh Birkenhead <mixsynth@...> wrote:
>
> grMp.
>
>
>
> wuns agen, nOwun hC iz tYkiN in /SEvWn. wI'D Yl nAtDiN on abQt
> sOSOliNgwistiks, fanetiks, Yltxnativ speliN sistamz n Yl HAt, n in H
> mIntFm,
> pUD Old /SEvWn iz getiN nO atenSan wotsOevD. it's nO wundD wI'D not
> getiN
> enI nV membDz.
>
>
>
> hQ R wI evD gOiN t kanvins H wxld v /SEvIan'z benafits if QD Alfabet
> v cqs
> in His grMp iz not /SEvWn?
>
>
>
> wI mFt Az wel rInEm His grMp "JenDal fanetiks|speliN rifPm diskuSan
> grMp".
>
>
>
> enI riplFz t His mesiJ not ritan in /SEvWn wil bI dalItad. :-)
>
>
>
> /hV
>
>
>
>


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Hugh wrote: stIv, F agrI HAt it iz Vsfal t rFt in /rOman letDz wen intrOdVsiN
/SEvWn t uHDz, P wen iksplEniN it, sins fP sumwun hM iz not familC wiH H
Alfabet, rFtiN in it iz not gOiN t dM enI gUd.

SB: The Shavian keyboard map is easy enuf to read once learned. However, I
think ENgliS is easier for the novice.

I am not sold on the using the traditional shifted vowels AEIOU. E I aI O U
make more sense.

F for Y is not a bad substitution because the shape was once associated with
"waw" which had a Y shape.
If we go back another 2000 years, the shape was associated with the horned
viper. The Egyptian name for it was something like fedZ ... so it did represent
the F fonogram.

The Waw heritage may be the reason that we still name it "wie" instead of
something more in keeping with its sound such as "yee" or "yie".

The ENgliS transcription
www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/englis-short.htm
stEv, Y agrE Dat it iz Usfal t rYt in /rOman letarz wen
intradwsiN /SAvian t uDarz, or wen iksplAniN it, sins for
sumwun hw iz not familiar wiD D clfabet, rYtiN in it iz nct gOiN t dw enE gvd.


From: Newton, Philip [mailto:Philip.Newton@...]
Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] No more Roman please!
stIv, F agrI HAt it iz Vsfal t rFt in /rOman letDz wen intrOdVsiN /SEvWn t
uHDz, P wen iksplEniN it, sins fP sumwun hM iz not familC wiH H Alfabet, rFtiN
in it iz not gOiN t dM enI gUd.
SP. F agrI. H vAst maJoratI v wot iz diskust hC iz Just stuf bitwIn QDselvz
HO. sO HX’z nO ikskVs rWlI not t Vz H wxld’z best alfabet!
hQevD, mOst v H tFm wI R not iksplEniN /SEvWn t uHDz but R tYkiN amuNst
QDselvz! n His wI kUd sxtanlI dM in /SEvWn, sins HOz v us hM hAf Jqnd H list
prizVmablI did sO bikoz HX[*] intDestid in H Alfabet n FHD nO it P R wiliN t lxn it.
F TiNk His iz wot /hV woz getiN At.
V R v kPs kDekt.
[*] hQ t rFt "HE R" Az a kontrAkSan? F pranQns it egzAktlI lFk "HX" mIniN "v
Hem" P "not hC", sO F HiNk it SUd probablI bI ritan HAt wE... rFtiN it
etimOloJikalI Az "HE'r" P "HE'D" duzn't mEk muc sens t mI sins HX's no "E" sQnd in
HAt wxd.
F rFt “HE’D” but OnlI fP klAratI. HX’z probablI nO rIzan fP mI t dM it HAt
wE, bikoz lFk V F pranQns it “HX” tM.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh Birkenhead [mailto:mixsynth@...]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 12:09 AM
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] Re: No more Roman. How do we set Font?



nFHD v HOz mesaJaz kEm up in /SEvWn.

F'm awX v H fAkt HAt mFn wozant... F woz rFtiN from /JImEl, wic duzant sapPt
/html. F did H best F kUd.

H /jyhM /grMpz intDfEs duznt alQ font cEnJaz.

nFHD duz /JImEl.



H best wE v rFtiN /SEvWn iz TrM jP ImEl prOgrAm.

if it sapPts /html... not Yl prOgrAms dM. n sum let V rId /html-fPmatid
mesaJiz but not rFt nV wunz.

/filip

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Star Raven [mailto:celestraof12worlds@...
<mailto:celestraof12worlds@...> ]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 5:02 AM
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] No more Roman please!
>
> Okay, so here's my problem. I don't have any way to dispay a
> shavian font.


hQ dM V rId list ImEls? TrM an ImEl prOgrAm (wic wun?)? TrM H /jyhM grMps
intDfEs? sum uHD wE?

its posibal HAt Yl V hAf t dM iz instYl H "Shaw Sans No. 2" font, wic V kAn
fFnd in H "fFlz" sekSan v H grMp's websFt.

if Yl els fElz, trF kopIiN H tekst v an ImEl intM a wxd prOsesD suc Az
/wxdpAd P /wxd n fPmatiN it wiH H "Shaw Sans No. 2" font.

cCz,
/filip

How do you read this group? Through an email program (which one?) Through
the Yahoo!Groups interface? Some other way?

It's possible that all you need to do is install the "Shaw Sans No. 2" font,
which you can find in the "Files" section of the group's website.

If all else fails, try copying the text of an email into a word processor
such as WordPad or Word and formatting it with the "Shaw Sans No. 2" font.

Cheers,
Philip

-----Original Message-----
From: stbetta@... [mailto:stbetta@...]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 1:56 AM
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] On the benefits of a Voiced/Unvoiced Distinction
in Shaw A...


Paul,

From a teachers point of view, an ambiguous TH is not a problem because most
of the words involved are high frequency and rather short.

Children have already mastered how TH words are pronounced so they pick up
rather fast that thought is pronounced thot Tot and the is pronounced THa Ha

The problem is for non-native English speakers.

it's trM HAt in mOst kEsiz, reprazentiN bOT sQndz wiH OnlI wun simbal wil
not kYz AmbigVitI, but HE R separat fOnImz in iNliS--HX R minimal pXz suc Az
"TF" vxsas "HF" (Ivan if "HF" iz not a koman wxd enI mP).

hens, a fOnImik Alfabet must separEt HOz tM sQndz--Az /SEvWn duz. Hen HXz
nuTiN t "pik up", weHD fyst P slOlI; its indikEtid direktlI bF H PTografI.

(insidentalI, Fd rFt "thought" Az "TYt", not "Tot", HO fP pIpal wiH He
"kot-kYt" mxJD, HEd bI pranQnst H sEm, v kPs.)

cCz,
/filip

-----Original Message-----
From: stbetta@... [mailto:stbetta@...]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 6:00 AM
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [shawalphabet] keyboard maps


Hugh wrote: stIv, F agrI HAt it iz Vsfal t rFt in /rOman letDz wen
intrOdVsiN /SEvWn t uHDz, P wen iksplEniN it, sins fP sumwun hM iz not
familC wiH H Alfabet, rFtiN in it iz not gOiN t dM enI gUd.

it woz F hM rOt HAt; /hV woz mClI kwOtiN mI.

SB: The Shavian keyboard map is easy enuf to read once learned.

wIv gon TrM His bifP... but Fl sE it agen.

/SEvWn iz not ment t bI red in H "kIbPd mAp" fPm; its ment t bI red VziN its
On letDSEps. H kIbPd mAp iz irelavant; it OnlI matDz inAsmuc Az muc v tMdE'z
softwX kAnot hAndal propD /VnikOd /SEvWn n wI hAf t mEk dM wiH swiciN fonts,
wic prIsapOziz a sxtan mApiN. but if V hAv H fonts instYld, V dOnt sI H
mApiN, sO it SUd bI trAnzpArint.


I am not sold on the using the traditional shifted vowels AEIOU. E I aI O U
make more sense.

akPdiN t /hV, /SEvWn iz H grEtist Alfabet in H wxld... n it duz not hAv enI
v HOz "AEIOU" SEps V menSan.

iz it posibal HAt V dM not hAv H propD font instYld n R HXfP sIiN /rOman
letDz evrIwX? P pDhAps jUD ImEl prOgrAm wOnt SO font cEnJiz?

However, I think ENgliS is easier for the novice.

Hen F TiNk HAt jUD in H roN grMp... His wun iz fP diskusiN /SEvWn, not fP
JenDal diskuSan v /iNliS speliN rifPm. if V prIfx ENgliS n wUd lFk t siN its
prEziz, plIz dM sO elswX... P At H verI lIst, dM sO in /SEvWn. (Fm rimFndid
v H cRta fP H /kliNon laNgwiJ list: "diskus H /kliNon lANgwiJ in enI
lANgwiJ, P diskus enITiN V wont in /kliNon". F TiNk His list wUd wxk wiH a
similD cRta Az wel: if jUD [Jenerik "V" hC] not gOiN t tYk abQt /SEvWn, At
lIst tYk in /SEvWn.)

F for Y is not a bad substitution

"F" reprazents not OnlI "Y" but YlsO "I", fP egzympal. but "F" iz not "F"!

jUDz /SEvWnlI,
/filip

Philip,

I make a distinction between Shavian and the keyboard map that one learns in
order to access the Shavian characters on the font.

I fail to see why you consider any discussion of alternative keyboard maps
off limits. The keyboard map is not part of Shavian it is just convention used
by most of those who have developed digital fonts for Shavian.

You also say the keyboard map doesn't matter. I doesn't as far as Shavian is
concerned but we are probably stuck with some kind of keyboard map for the
next ten years.

You need to be thinking in terms of how Shavian is going to be anything more
than a parallel writing system used by a few hundred people. How do you
increase the user population to over 1 million?

I am thinking in broader terms. What if we were to teach a simple dictionary
key spelling to preschool children? With this spelling you could go two
ways. You could write in Shavian and/or you could learn the traditional system.

ENgliS is better suited for matching up with the alphabet knowledge that
preschoolers have acquired prior to starting kindergarten. It also matches up
better with the traditional spellings they will be required to master in the
first grade.

There is enough resistance to teaching two codes to avoid introducing the
Latin based correspondences E I (F) O U.

If you are familiar with my SPANGLISH, you will know that I have tried to go
that route. I have tried to use as much of the Spanish orthography as
possible given the expanded set of vowel sounds in English. It is not as alien
looking as most people imagine.

www.foolswisdom.com/~sbett/spanglish.htm

More comments in blue



Hugh wrote: stIv, F agrI HAt it iz Vsfal t rFt in /rOman letDz wen intrOdVsiN
/SEvWn t uHDz, P wen iksplEniN it, sins fP sumwun hM iz not familC wiH H
Alfabet, rFtiN in it iz not gOiN t dM enI gUd.
it woz F hM rOt HAt; /hV woz mClI kwOtiN mI.
SB: The Shavian keyboard map is easy enuf to read once learned.
wIv gon TrM His bifP... but Fl sE it agen.
/SEvWn iz not ment t bI red in H "kIbPd mAp" fPm; its ment t bI red VziN its
On letDSEps. H kIbPd mAp iz irelavant; it OnlI matDz inAsmuc Az muc v tMdE'z
softwX kAnot hAndal propD /VnikOd /SEvWn n wI hAf t mEk dM wiH swiciN fonts,
wic prIsapOziz a sxtan mApiN. but if V hAv H fonts instYld, V dOnt sI H mApiN,
sO it SUd bI trAnzpArint.
I am not sold on the using the traditional shifted vowels AEIOU. E I aI O U
make more sense.
akPdiN t /hV, /SEvWn iz H grEtist Alfabet in H wxld... n it duz not hAv enI v
HOz "AEIOU" SEps V menSan.
Hugh may think that Shavian is the greater alphabet but that doesn't mean he
has come up with a convincing argument. You first have to explain why Shavian
is better than IPA.
P pDhAps jUD ImEl prOgrAm wOnt SO font cEnJiz?
However, I think ENgliS is easier for the novice.
Hen F TiNk HAt jUD in H roN grMp... His wun iz fP diskusiN /SEvWn, not fP
JenDal diskuSan v /iNliS speliN rifPm.
I suppose you could have a group that did nothing but answer the problems
that novices had with the orthographic conventions. This would probably include
problems they were having with the keyboard map.

Unless this is clearly stated, then anything remotely related to Shavian is
not off topic. Shavian's relation to IPA, traditional spelling, and its
popularization as a parallel writing system are all legitimate topics of discussion.
if V prIfx ENgliS n wUd lFk t siN its prEziz, plIz dM sO elswX... P At H verI
lIst, dM sO in /SEvWn. (Fm rimFndid v H cRta fP H /kliNon laNgwiJ list:
"diskus H /kliNon lANgwiJ in enI lANgwiJ, P diskus enITiN V wont in /kliNon". F
TiNk His list wUd wxk wiH a similD cRta Az wel: if jUD [Jenerik "V" hC] not gOiN
t tYk abQt /SEvWn, At lIst tYk in /SEvWn.)
F for Y is not a bad substitution
"F" reprazents not OnlI "Y" but YlsO "I", fP egzympal. but "F" iz not "F"!
The comment is an admission that DeMeyere might have had good grounds for
selecting the F for /aI/ and an attempt to build some associations that might
make F easier for a notice to see F as a sound sign for something other than
/f/.

ENgliS is just an example of a keyboard map that is easier to decipher than
the existing keyboard map. ENgliS is not suitable for Shavian as it is
currently configured but it does suggest a way that might be easier for novices to
pick up. I am sorry that I have not been able to make my point.

ENgliS or a convention that started with AEIOU for the long vowels would
require additional development to be suitable for the expanded set of Shavian
characters. Shavian has various ligatures that are not normally part of a
phonemic writing system.

Paul has argued that D can be thought of as equivalent to /3/ or /3r/ rather
than an alternate way to represent /@r/.


My reverance for AEIOU has nothing to do with efficient sound representation.
It has to do with working with prevailing prejudices.
iz it posibal HAt V dM not hAv H propD font instYld n R HXfP sIiN /rOman
letDz evrIwX?
No that is not possible. I have Shaw Sans 2 installed and it displays the
Shavian characters quite well.

On the benefits of a Voiced/Unvoiced Distinction in Shavian
Steve wrote: From a teachers point of view, an ambiguous TH is not much of a
problem because most of the words involved are high frequency and rather
short.

Children have already mastered how TH words are pronounced so they pick up
rather fast that thought is pronounced thot Tot and the is pronounced THa Ha

The problem is for non-native English speakers.
I agree with Philip that a phonemic writing system has to have one symbol per
sound so the distinction will be in Shavian even if it has no benefit for the
native English speaking user. Paul was searching for additional
justifications.
it's trM HAt in mOst kEsiz, reprazentiN bOT sQndz wiH OnlI wun simbal wil not
kYz AmbigVitI, but HE R separat fOnImz in iNliS--HX R minimal pXz suc Az "TF"
vxsas "HF" (Ivan if "HF" iz not a koman wxd enI mP).

SB: F agrI.
/filip : hens, a fOnImik Alfabet must separEt HOz tM sQndz--Az /SEvWn duz.
Hen HXz nuTiN t "pik up", weHD fyst P slOlI; its indikEtid direktlI bF H
PTografI.

SB: F agrI wiH His stEtmant Az wel. PYl, hQevar, woz trFiN
tM justifF mEkiN Ha distinkSan.
/filip (insidentalI, Fd rFt "thought" Az "TYt", not "Tot", HO fP pIpal wiH He
"kot-kYt" mxJD, HEd bI pranQnst H sEm, v kPs.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Star Raven [HYPERLINK
"mailto:celestraof12worlds@..."mailto:celestraof12worlds@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2005 5:02 AM
> To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [shawalphabet] No more Roman please!
>
> Okay, so here's my problem. I don't have any way to dispay a
> shavian font.

hQ dM V rId list ImEls? TrM an ImEl prOgrAm (wic wun?)? TrM H /jyhM grMps
intDfEs? sum uHD wE?

its posibal HAt Yl V hAf t dM iz instYl H "Shaw Sans No. 2" font, wic V kAn
fFnd in H "fFlz" sekSan v H grMp's websFt.

if Yl els fElz, trF kopIiN H tekst v an ImEl intM a wxd prOsesD suc Az
/wxdpAd P /wxd n fPmatiN it wiH H "Shaw Sans No. 2" font.

cCz,
/filip



F hAd hOpt HAt HX wUd bI nO mP trubal rIdiN /SEvWn fonts. :(

if V hAv “/SY /sAnz /2” instYld V SUd bI Ebal t rId /SEvWn mesaJaz TrM H
/jyhM /grMps intDfEs. His duznt help rFtiN Hem HO. if V hAv a PC wiH /windOz
XP, V SUd trF VziN /QtlUk /ikspres (fAktDI instYld). it displEz HTML ImEl
fFn.

/hV /b


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_____

From: stbetta@... [mailto:stbetta@...]
Sent: 04 March 2005 18:27
To: shawalphabet@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [shawalphabet] keyboard maps



Hugh may think that Shavian is the greater alphabet but that doesn't mean he
has come up with a convincing argument. You first have to explain why
Shavian is better than IPA.



but F nO HAt F dOnt hAv t kanvins enIwun P pUt fPwDd enI ‘Rgjamant’, bikoz
F’m in H /SEvWn grMp. His hApanz t bI a grMp fP kanvxsiN in n abQt H /SY
/Alfabet. IPA kAn bI diskust enIwX els but hC.



I suppose you could have a group that did nothing but answer the problems
that novices had with the orthographic conventions. This would probably
include problems they were having with the keyboard map.



H kIbPd mAp iz wun v HOz TiNz HAt iznt set in stOn. F dOnt TiNk it’s grEt
FHD, but it duz H Job. hevan nOz H hOl /kwxtI kIbPd iz a bit roN t stRt wiH.
if V balIv V hAv a betD sistam fP us Yl t Vz, plIz, tel us Yl abQt it in
grEtD dItEl, n mEk it posabal fP us t trF it Qt, sO HAt wI mFt sI its
benafits fP QDselvz. until V dM HAt, wI kAnt JuJ jP nV lEQt, n V kAnt kIp
gOiN on abQt it. dOnt fDget, V’D YlwEz frI t Vz wotevD kIbPd lEQt V lFk Az
loN Az it stil alQz V t tFp /SEvWn.



Unless this is clearly stated, then anything remotely related to Shavian is
not off topic. Shavian's relation to IPA, traditional spelling, and its
popularization as a parallel writing system are all legitimate topics of
discussion.



pxsanalI, F dOnt TiNk H mAn on H strIt kXz tM muc abQt H fFnD fanetik pqnts
v /SEvWn. tM muc tFm iz spent hC dibEtiN weHD P not letDz SUd bI wun wE rQnd
P anuHD, weHD HX SUd bI vqst-unvqst distiNkSanz, weHD /SEvWn iz betD HAn H
kompItiN speliN rifPm sistamz, ets.



enIwun hM kumz vizitiN hC iz gOiN t bI pUt of bF Yl HIz endlas Rgjamants n
sFantifik anAlasis. wI nId t SO nVkumDz, “lUk, hC’z /SEvWn, it wxks fP us,
it kAn wxk fP V tM!”



ENgliS is just an example of a keyboard map that is easier to decipher than
the existing keyboard map. ENgliS is not suitable for Shavian as it is
currently configured but it does suggest a way that might be easier for
novices to pick up. I am sorry that I have not been able to make my point.



if bF jP On admiSan it’s not sMtabal fP /SEvWn, F mFt bI sO bOld t suJast
HAt it’s nuTiN t dM wiH His grMp. jet.



No that is not possible. I have Shaw Sans 2 installed and it displays the
Shavian characters quite well.



wF not riplF in /SEvWn Hen?



/hV /b


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