Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Your posting reminds me that - in my few months as a member - I have noticed that we all have our particular "blind spots"

I too am rhotic American, and never had an issue with ah and awe. For me, when the doctor sticks the tongue depressor in your mouth he says "sE a!". And when the crow makes noise he "kYz".


My own personal blind spot is x w and D which certainly sound identical to my ears. Can you - /jAkI t /jAkF - help me with this distinction?




I have recently been comparing my notations in Shaw as opposed to my own pronunciation. I have come across a question:

What is the difference between up and ado, and what is the difference between ah and awe. I am wondering if this is a difference of accent (I am rhotic American) versus the actual pronunciation.

These were the only changes between Read and second shaw systems that threw me for a loop. Apparently the person who designed it did not understand the difference between Array and err as those who USE the alphabet.

Okay, now I'm getting full of myself...


Star

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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
/wUdstak /nV /jDk


"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
- /gPJ /bxnRd /SY

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Relax.

I have been first an observer and then a member since February.

Communication does indeed wax and wane.

These days, most of the traffic seems to involve we Americans making silly sophomoric statements which provoke response and critiques (friendly, non the less) from Europeans and Antipodians.

I put the recent lack of action to the fact that, as I understand it, most of Europe shuts down for vacation the entire of August, while we colonial drudges sit chained to our desk-tops.

Hang around - you'll find it rewarding.



In the two weeks I have belonged to this group, I have received only two
messages and posts I thought I have made have been completely ignored.

It occurs to me there are three possibilities:

1. I am unwelcome
2. Yahoo has messed up
3. It is not a very active group.

Are there other possibilities?

Walt Reeser

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--
- /bob /mk/brMm
/wUdstak /nV /jDk


"wun simpol iz az gUd Az anuHD prOvFdid
evriwun atAcez H sEm mIniN tM it."
- /gPJ /bxnRd /SY

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Greetings,

The prologue of Androcles and the Lion, in the first sentence and many
others, transcribes words like "faintly" with an -ly suffix using [l]oll [i]f instead of [l]oll [ea]t as I would expect.

I think most speakers would pronounce -ly with a long e sound as in eat,
not [i]f which I would also pronounce as vowel in "bit". Yet the [i]f
character is used. Does [i]f have two sounds?

Thanks,
-mitch


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Mitch

This has been discussed at length in the past. My recommendation to you is
to go to the mailing list archive (www.yahoogroups.com/group/shavian) and
read back through the postings. Look for titles such as "eat versus if".

Hugh B
www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "em pee" <mitch@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:07 PM
Subject: [shavian] (beginner) How to transcribe -LY: [i]f versus [ea]t


> Greetings,
>
> The prologue of Androcles and the Lion, in the first sentence and many
> others, transcribes words like "faintly" with an -ly suffix using [l]oll
[i]f instead of [l]oll [ea]t as I would expect.
>
> I think most speakers would pronounce -ly with a long e sound as in eat,
> not [i]f which I would also pronounce as vowel in "bit". Yet the [i]f
> character is used. Does [i]f have two sounds?
>
> Thanks,
> -mitch
>
>
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Mitch

This has been discussed at length in the past. My recommendation to you is
to go to the mailing list archive (www.yahoogroups.com/group/shavian) and
read back through the postings. Look for titles such as "eat versus if".

Hugh B
www.mixsynth.btinternet.co.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "em pee" <mitch@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:07 PM
Subject: [shavian] (beginner) How to transcribe -LY: [i]f versus [ea]t


> Greetings,
>
> The prologue of Androcles and the Lion, in the first sentence and many
> others, transcribes words like "faintly" with an -ly suffix using [l]oll
[i]f instead of [l]oll [ea]t as I would expect.
>
> I think most speakers would pronounce -ly with a long e sound as in eat,
> not [i]f which I would also pronounce as vowel in "bit". Yet the [i]f
> character is used. Does [i]f have two sounds?
>
> Thanks,
> -mitch
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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I don't think this chart is correct. A shavian writer should always write
all Rs. I pasted stickers on my keyboard and studied the phonetics available
at

http://www.simonbarne.com/shavian/

(look for the Quikscript/Shavian comparison chart)

Ewout
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Steve Bett <stbett@...>
Aan: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Datum: dinsdag 14 augustus 2001 9:49
Onderwerp: [shavian] Re: An old fan of Shavian with a question


>Star,
>
>There are several websites with good charts.
>
>Here is one that is on the yahoogroups server.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shavian/files/grapheme-phoneme-key-
>charts/shavian-ipa-keybd16.gif
>
>Perhaps this will help.
>
>It relates the shavian symbols to IPA and the ascii keyboard
>positions.
>
>Regards,
>
>Steve
>
>
>--- In shavian@y..., warriorprincess@g... wrote:
>> Hello all, from a Shavian across the pond!
>>
>> I learned about shavian from my senior english book in high school
>> and I have since been fascinated by writing systems. (linguistics
>is
>> my hobby) I an amazed that so many people recognize the usefulness
>of
>> a system that works by phonetics rather than traditional spellings.
>> After all, who cares if you spell grey or gray, colour or color,
>> turck or lorrie (okay maybe not that last one). Anyway, my
>> question/observation is this: Shavian is missing one phenome to
>make
>> it american as well as english--the breathless "wh" versus the
>> breathed "w". This might have already been rehashed, but I'm
>willing
>> to hash it again ;)
>>
>> Love and happy writing,
>> Star
>>
>> ps. is there anyone who has a key to practicing handwritten Shavian?
>>
>> All hail George Bernard Shaw!
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>


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em pee scripsit:
> The prologue of Androcles and the Lion, in the first sentence and many
> others, transcribes words like "faintly" with an -ly suffix using [l]oll [i]f
> instead of [l]oll [ea]t as I would expect.

That reflects a conservative version of British Received Pronunciation.
Some other dialects do the same thing: U.S. ex-President Jimmy Carter
uses the same vowel in both syllables of his first name.

--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@...
Please leave your values | Check your assumptions. In fact,
at the front desk. | check your assumptions at the door.
--sign in Paris hotel | --Miles Vorkosigan

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Thanks, Hugh.

A better search found message 765 by Jon Zuck, who quoted Read's
Quickscript manual regarding conventions. The short answer seems to
be unstressed vowels may sometimes have multiple transcriptions, so
a common convention is needed. GBS apparently chose 'i' over 'I',
maybe to save the jaggy stroke when writing?

Regarding my question of -ly, the same sound as in "city", the
specific answer is:

unstressed -y,-ey, -ie, -e, -ily, -ity (write IF)
hApili wiT mani in H citi

lEtx,
-Mitch


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I expect [ea]t too, but the [i]f is used all the time, and I don't think
it's that incorrect. The Quikscript manual also says you should use [i]f
for -y suffixes, if I'm not mistaken.

An introduction to Quikscript (the 'evolution' of Shavian) is in the files
section of the Shavian yahoo-group.

Ewout
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: em pee <mitch@...>
Aan: shavian@... <shavian@...>
Datum: donderdag 6 september 2001 21:20
Onderwerp: [shavian] (beginner) How to transcribe -LY: [i]f versus [ea]t


>Greetings,
>
>The prologue of Androcles and the Lion, in the first sentence and many
>others, transcribes words like "faintly" with an -ly suffix using [l]oll
[i]f instead of [l]oll [ea]t as I would expect.
>
>I think most speakers would pronounce -ly with a long e sound as in eat,
>not [i]f which I would also pronounce as vowel in "bit". Yet the [i]f
>character is used. Does [i]f have two sounds?




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Is there a flag or icon that represents Shavian? I am producing
an educational product and am planning on including a bit of
Shavian text and would like a flag to go with the text.

Possibilities that I can think of include:

- A Dublin flag (birthplace of Shaw)
- A Hertfordshire flag (where Shaw died, which is connected with
the birth of Shavian, but there doesn't seem to be such a flag...)
- A flag containing icons from Androcles and the Lion
- Something connected with Kingsley Read

Ideally it would be simple and attractive.

I would think that someone with more than my little knowledge of
Shaw, Read, and / or Shavian should be able to give better
ideas.



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