Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

A pronunciation guide notation
that every reader can read without any training.

Taam may have been the first to comment on what he called "Chilee Spel" back in 1998.
Menuspel, another name for the same anonymous orthography presumed to be intuitively correct for tradspel adepts, is sometimes used in Dr. Seuss - Cat in the Hat books. Its origins go back well beyond that.

Can you read this? [dialect: NBC English]

AH-ee TAH-eed uh noo NAW-ti-kul naht.

Please comment.

Tom says that it does not make sense to break down [ie] into a combination or diphthong.
He believes the IPA is just wrong when it represents [eye] as aI or [aa-ee] in Truespel.
IPA for BBC-English represents the same sound as @I or [uh-ee]. What do you think?

I have never included [ie] in the list of 14 pure or uncombined vowels.
I do not think you can pronounce it without making a change in articulation.
You can say -- aaaaaaaaaa
You can say -- eeeeeeeeeee
You can combine the two in one syllable. aa-ee to form a diphthong.
... but you cannot say -- [ie] or [eye] in one continuous uninterrupted breath. Try it.

In terms of a notation that every reader can read, ie may be a better primitive phonogram.
School teachers rarely treat I as a diphthong.

The Dr. Seuss Dictionary of Dinosaur Names

www.randomhouse.com/seussville <http://www.randomhouse.com/seussville>

Tyrannosaurus = tie-RAN-uh-saw-rus
Carnivore = CAR-ni-vor
Triceratops = try-SEHR-uh-tops
Apatosaurus = uh-PAT-uh-saw-rus
Herbivore = ERB-ih-vor
Brachiosaurus = BRACK-ee-uh-saw-rus
Zucchini Brain Zoo-KEY-nee Brain

iguanodon = ih-GWAN-uh-don
Deinonychus = die-NON-ih-kus
terrible claw = TAIR-uh-bull klaw
Archaeopteryx = are-key-OP-ter-ix
alt. ahr-kee-OP-tur-iks

Tom will have to provide the Truespel equivalents because the words are not in the converter dictionary. http://www.foreignword.com/dictionary/truespel/transpel.htm <http://www.forei>

Tom's critique of Menu-Spell is that it is not consistent. There are a few gaps.

TRUESPEL VERSION

Tyrannosaurus = tie-RRAN-u-sau-rus
Carnivore = KAR-ni-vor
Triceratops = trie-SSER-u-taaps
Apatosaurus = u-PPAT-u-sau-rus
Herbivore = ER-bi-vor

Brachiosaurus = BRAK-ee-u-sau-rus
Zucchini Brain Zue-KKEE-nee Braen

iguanodon = i-GWAN-u-daan
Deinonychus = die-NNAAN-i-kus
terrible claw = TAIR-u-bool klau
Archaeopteryx = aar-kee-yAAP-ter-iks

While Tom's system is internally consistent, it is
not clear that it could be easily sounded out by the
uninitiated. That could be easily tested. Give 20
people a card with the MENUSPEL list and ask them to
pronounce the names. Count the number of misses.

Do the same with the TRUESPEL list. Count the number of misses. Then compare.

The notation with the fewest number of errors would be deemed the most intuitive.

While we are at it we might as well add one more
notation. The cards would be handed out in random
order. Any suggestions?

UNIFON and ENgliS VERSIONS

Tyrannosaurus = tI-ran-u-sx-rus UNIFON
tY-rqn-a-so-ras ENgliS
t?-r?n-a-s?-ras U2 no-caps
ty-rann-a-soras Spanglish y=schwi

Carnivore = kor-ni-vOr UNIFON
kcr-ni-vor ENgliS
k?r-ni-v?r U2 - no cap
caar-ni-vor Spanglish

Triceratops = trI-sAr-u-tops UNIFON
trY-ser-a-tcps ENgliS
tr?-ser-a-t?ps U2 - no cap
try-cerr-a-tops Spanglish

Apatosaurus = u-pat-u-sx-us
a-pqt-a-so-ras
a-p?t-?-s?-r?s the a still looks more like a turned e
a-paat-a-soras but the slash o ? is distinctive


Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
ur-bi-vor ENgliS
?r-bi-v?r U2 downsize
ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish

NOTES: Accented letters that may not be viewable: ? ????? ?? ??
In ENgliS a = schwa [turned e] but the unicode schwa is very unlikely to come thru:
The Latin 1 slash-o character ? is a possible alternative.
Latin 1 has been supported since 1997. You should be able to read any
character used by European written languages.

resources: use the search engines at
www.unifon.org <http://www.unifon.org> and www.spellingsociety.org <http://www.spellingsociety.org>
Info on saundspel-the phonology forum can be found at www.unifon.org/saundspel <http://www.unifon.org/saundspel>

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Hi Scott
Shaw spelling seems much more letter efficient.
See my ADDITIONS for Shavian forms below.

Shaw, UNIFON and ENgliS VERSIONS

ti-rAn-a-sP-as SHAVIAN
Tyrannosaurus = tI-ran-u-sx-rus UNIFON
tY-rqn-a-so-ras ENgliS
tý-ræn-a-sô-ras U2 no-caps
ty-rann-a-soras Spanglish y=schwi

kR-na-vP SHAVIAN
Carnivore = kor-ni-vOr UNIFON
kcr-ni-vor ENgliS
kär-ni-vôr U2 - no cap
caar-ni-vor Spanglish

trF-sX-a-tops SHAVIAN
Triceratops = trI-sAr-u-tops UNIFON
trY-ser-a-tcps ENgliS
trý-ser-a-täps U2 - no cap
try-cerr-a-tops Spanglish

a-pAt-a-sP-as SHAVIAN
Apatosaurus = u-pat-u-sx-us
a-pqt-a-so-ras
a-pæt-ø-sô-røs
a-paat-a-sor-as

hx-bi-vP SHAVIAN *** (isn't the "h" pronounced)
Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
ur-bi-vor ENgliS
ûr-bi-vôr U2 downsize
ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish

The Shaw spelling is shorter than all the other spellings.
In longer words, the English pronunciation style of putting stress on
alternate syllables, becomes more obvious.
I suspect there are many exceptions, tho.

Regards, Paul V.
_______________________attached______________________


--- In shavian@..., stbett@y... wrote:
> A pronunciation guide notation
> that every reader can read without any training.
>
> Taam may have been the first to comment on what he called "Chilee
Spel" back
> in 1998.
> Menuspel, another name for the same anonymous orthography presumed
to be
> intuitively correct for tradspel adepts, is sometimes used in Dr.
Seuss - Cat in
> the Hat books. Its origins go back well beyond that.
>
> Can you read this? [dialect: NBC English]
>
> AH-ee TAH-eed uh noo NAW-ti-kul naht.
>
> Please comment.
>
> Tom says that it does not make sense to break down [ie] into a
combination or
> diphthong.
> He believes the IPA is just wrong when it represents [eye] as aI or
[aa-ee]
> in Truespel.
> IPA for BBC-English represents the same sound as @I or [uh-ee].
What do you
> think?
>
> I have never included [ie] in the list of 14 pure or uncombined
vowels.
> I do not think you can pronounce it without making a change in
articulation.
> You can say -- aaaaaaaaaa
> You can say -- eeeeeeeeeee
> You can combine the two in one syllable. aa-ee to form a
diphthong.
> ... but you cannot say -- [ie] or [eye] in one continuous
uninterrupted
> breath. Try it.
>
> In terms of a notation that every reader can read, ie may be a
better
> primitive phonogram.
> School teachers rarely treat I as a diphthong.
>
> The Dr. Seuss Dictionary of Dinosaur Names
>
> www.randomhouse.com/seussville
>
> Tyrannosaurus = tie-RAN-uh-saw-rus
> Carnivore = CAR-ni-vor
> Triceratops = try-SEHR-uh-tops
> Apatosaurus = uh-PAT-uh-saw-rus
> Herbivore = ERB-ih-vor
> Brachiosaurus = BRACK-ee-uh-saw-rus
> Zucchini Brain Zoo-KEY-nee Brain
>
> iguanodon = ih-GWAN-uh-don
> Deinonychus = die-NON-ih-kus
> terrible claw = TAIR-uh-bull klaw
> Archaeopteryx = are-key-OP-ter-ix
> alt. ahr-kee-OP-tur-iks
>
> Tom will have to provide the Truespel equivalents because the words
are not
> in the converter dictionary.
> http://www.foreignword.com/dictionary/truespel/transpel.htm
>
> Tom's critique of Menu-Spell is that it is not consistent. There
are a few
> gaps.
>
> TRUESPEL VERSION
>
> Tyrannosaurus = tie-RRAN-u-sau-rus
> Carnivore = KAR-ni-vor
> Triceratops = trie-SSER-u-taaps
> Apatosaurus = u-PPAT-u-sau-rus
> Herbivore = ER-bi-vor
>
> Brachiosaurus = BRAK-ee-u-sau-rus
> Zucchini Brain Zue-KKEE-nee Braen
>
> iguanodon = i-GWAN-u-daan
> Deinonychus = die-NNAAN-i-kus
> terrible claw = TAIR-u-bool klau
> Archaeopteryx = aar-kee-yAAP-ter-iks
>
> While Tom's system is internally consistent, it is
> not clear that it could be easily sounded out by the
> uninitiated. That could be easily tested. Give 20
> people a card with the MENUSPEL list and ask them to
> pronounce the names. Count the number of misses.
>
> Do the same with the TRUESPEL list. Count the number of misses.
Then
> compare.
>
> The notation with the fewest number of errors would be deemed the
most
> intuitive.
>
> While we are at it we might as well add one more
> notation. The cards would be handed out in random
> order. Any suggestions?
>
> UNIFON and ENgliS VERSIONS
>
> Tyrannosaurus = tI-ran-u-sx-rus UNIFON
> tY-rqn-a-so-ras ENgliS
> tý-ræn-a-sô-ras U2 no-caps
> ty-rann-a-soras Spanglish y=schwi
>
> Carnivore = kor-ni-vOr UNIFON
> kcr-ni-vor ENgliS
> kär-ni-vôr U2 - no cap
> caar-ni-vor Spanglish
>
> Triceratops = trI-sAr-u-tops UNIFON
> trY-ser-a-tcps ENgliS
> trý-ser-a-täps U2 - no cap
> try-cerr-a-tops Spanglish
>
> Apatosaurus = u-pat-u-sx-us
> a-pqt-a-so-ras
> a-pæt-ø-sô-røs the a still looks more like a
turned e
> a-paat-a-
soras but
> the slash o ø is distinctive
>
>
> Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
> ur-bi-vor ENgliS
> ûr-bi-vôr U2 downsize
> ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish
>
> NOTES: Accented letters that may not be viewable: æ áéýóú üä ôû
> In ENgliS a = schwa [turned e] but the unicode schwa is very
unlikely to come
> thru:
> The Latin 1 slash-o character ø is a possible alternative.
> Latin 1 has been supported since 1997. You should be able to read
any
> character used by European written languages.
>
> resources: use the search engines at
> www.unifon.org and www.spellingsociety.org
> Info on saundspel-the phonology forum can be found at
> www.unifon.org/saundspel


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paul vandenbrink wrote:

> hx-bi-vP SHAVIAN *** (isn't the "h" pronounced)
> Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
> ur-bi-vor ENgliS
> ûr-bi-vôr U2 downsize
> ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish

There's a good question. How many people pronounce or don't pronounce
the "h" in herb and derivitive words? I'm a bit puzzled myself, since I
hear different people from the same geographic area here saying it
different ways. I normally don't pronounce the h.

--
Ethan

The chicken came first.


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msg: 2284

Steve Bett <stbett@...> wrote:

Carl,

Why should Shavian have any more dialect and accent allowances than

a transcription in IPA?

The IPA is usually used for a narrow transcription - one that

captures dialects.

Shavian is usually used for a broad transcription - one that tends

to overlook and ignore subtle differences in accent.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

msg: 1612

One almost needs a pronunciation dictionary for every

major dialect of English. www.fonetik.com has started

moving in this direction.

Publishers have always wanted standardized spelling

because this allows speed reading.

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

```````````````````````````````````

417: dialektoloji n pAleografi

````````````````````````````````````

[1] HAt kontemporEri kulcural sosFeti iz a rAHer rIsent fenomenon iz wel SOn bF H prezent-dE survFval v suc primitiv sOSal kondiSunz Az karAkterFz H /YstrElian nEtivz n H bUSmen n pigmIz v /Afrika. amoN HIz bAkward pIpulz mE bI obzervd somTiN v H urli grMp hostiliti, personal suspiSon, n oHer hFli AntisOSal trEts wic wur sO karAkteristik v Yl primitiv rEsez. HIz mizerabal remnAnts v H nonsOSal pIpulz v EnSent tFmz bEr elokwent testimoni t H fAkt HAt H nAcural individjMalistik tendensi v mAn kAnot suksesfuli kompIt wiH H mOr pOtent n powerful OrgAnizESunz n asOsiESunz v sOSal progreSun. HIz bAkward n suspiSus AntisOSal rEsez HAt spIk a diferent dFalekt everi 40 Or 50 mFlz ilustrEt wut a wurld jM mFt nQ bI liviN in but fOr H kombFnd tIciN v H korporial stAf v H plAnetari prins n H lEter lEborz v H AdAmik grMp v rESac uplifterz. ---pEper 68:1

[2] H klAnz wur blud-tF grMps wiHin H trFb, n HE Od Her ekzistens t serten komon interests, suc Az:

1. trEsiN OriJin bAk t a komon Ansestor.

2. alIJens t a komon reliJus tOtem.

3. spIkiN H sEm dFalekt.

4. SEriN a komon dweliN plEs.

5. fiariN H sEm enemIz.

6. hAviN hAd a komon militeri ekspiariens. ---pEper 70:4

[3] H evolMSun v stEthUd entElz progres from level t level, Az folOz:

1. H krIESun v a 3-fOld government v eksekjMtiv, leJislEtiv, n JMdiSul brAncez.

2. H frIdom v sOSul, politikul, n reliJus AktivitIz.

3. H AboliSun v Yl fOrmz v slEveri n hjMmAn bondaJ.

4. H abiliti v H sitizenri t kontrOl H levIiN v tAksez.

5. H estAbliSment v jMniversal edjMkESun--lurniN ekstended from H krEdel t H grEv.

6. H proper aJustment betwIn lOkal n nASunal governments.

7. H fYsteriN v sFens n H konkwest v dizIz.

8. H dM rekogniSun v seks IkwYliti n H kO-ordinEted fuNkSuniN v men n wimen in H hOm, skMl, n curc, wiH speSulFzd servis v wimen in industri n government.

9. H eliminESun v tqliN slEveri bF maSIn invenSun n H subsekwent mAsteri v H maSIn EJ.

aaa10. H konkwest v dFalekts--H trFumf v a jMniversal lANgwaJ.

11. H endiN v war--internASunal aJMdikESun v nASunal n rESal diferensez bF kontinental kOrts v nESunz prezFded Over bF a suprIm plAnetari trFbjMnal YtomAtikali rekrMted from H

periodikuli retFriN hedz v H kontinental kOrts. H kontinental kOrts yr YTOritEtiv; e warld kOrt iz AdvFzori--mOral.

12. H wurld-wFd vOg v H pursMt v wizdom--H eksultESun v filosofi. H evolMSun v a wurld reliJon, wic wil prIsEJ H entrAns v H plAnet upon H urlier fEzez v setulment in lFt n lFf.

--pEper 71:8

[4]

H tuN v /Iden woz An /Andonik dFalekt Az spOken bF /Amadon. /vAn n /Amadon hAd myrkedli imprMvd His lANgwaJ bF krIEtiN a njM Alfabet v 24 leterz, n HE hAd hOpd t sI it bekom H Aksepted lANgwaJ sistem Az H Idenik kulcur wUd spred TrMQt H wurld. /Adam n /Iv hAd fuli mAsterd His hjMmAn dFalekt befOr HE depyrted from /JerMsem sO HAt His son v /Andon herd H eksYlted rMler v hiz wurld adres him in hiz On tuN. --pEper 74:2



[5]

/Adam n /Iv fQnd Hemselvz on a sfiar hOli unprepErd fOr H proklamESun v H broHerhUd v mAn, a wurld grOpiN abQt in AbJekt spiaricual dyrknes n kurst wiH konfjMZon wurs konfQnded bF H miskEraJ v H miSon v H presIdiN AdministrESon. mFnd n mOralz wur At a lO level, n insted v beginiN H tAsk v efektiN reliJuz jMniti, HE must begin Yl anjM H work v konvertiN H inhAbitAnts t H mOst simpal fOrmz v reliJus belIf. insted v fFndiN wun lANgwaJ redi fOr adopSon, HE wur konfronted bF H wurld-wFd konfjMZon v hundredz upon hundredz v lOkal dFalekts. nO /Adam v H plAnetari servis wuz ever set dQn on a mOr difikult wurld; H obstAkalz sImd insMperabal n H problemz bejond krIcur solMSon. ---pEper 75:1

[6]

H sivilizESon v /turkestAn woz konstAntli bIiN revFvd n refreSd bF H njMkomerz from /mesOpotEmia, espeSali bF H lEter /AndFt kAvalrimen. H sO-kYld /EriAn moHer tuN woz in proses v formESon in H hFlAndz v /turkestAn; it woz a blend v H /Andonik dFalekt v Hat rIJon wiH H lANgwaJ v H /AdamsonFts n lEter /AndFts. mAni modern lANgwaJez yr derFvd from His urli spIc v HIz sentral /ESian trFbz hM koNkerd /jurop, /india, n H uper strecez v H /mesOpotEmian plEnz. His EnSent laNgwaJ gEv H /oksidental tuNz Yl v Hat similariti wic iz kYld /Erian. --pAper 78:5

[7]

betwIn 4000 n 500 bI sI H politikal rIjMnifikESon v H jelO rEs woz konsUmEted, but H kulcural jMion v H /jANtzi n jelO river senterz hAd Ylredi ben efekted. His politikal rEjMnifikESon v H lEter trFbal grMps woz not wiHQt konflikt, but H sosFetal opinion v wYr remEnd lO; Ansestor wOrSip, inkrIsiN dFalekts, n nO kYl fOr militari akSon fOr TQzAndz upon TQzAndz v jIrz hAd renderd His pIpal ultrapIsful. --pEper 79:8

[8]

efektivnes v lANgwaJ.

H spred v sivilizESun must wEt upon lANgwaJ. lFv n grOiN lANgwaJez inSur H ekspAnSun v sivilFzd TiNkiN n plAniN. duriN e urli EJez impOrtAnt AdvAnsez wer mEd in lANgwaJ. tUdE, Her iz grEt nId fOr furHer liNgwistik development t fasilitEt H ekspreSun v evolviN TYt.

lANgwaJ evolvd Qt v grMp asOsiESunz, Ic lOkul grMp developiN its On sistem v wurd ekscEnJ. lANgwaJ grM up TrM Jescurz, sFnz, krFz, imitEtiv sQndz, intOnESun, n Aksent t H vOkulizESun v subsekwent Alfabets. lANgwaJ iz mAn'z grEtest n mOst servisabul TiNkiN tMl, but it never flUriSd until sOSal grMps AkwFrd sum lIZur. H tendensi t plE wiH lANgwaJ develops njM wurdz-slAN. if H maJOriti adopt H slAN, Hen jMsaJ konstitMts it lANgwaJ. H OriJin v dFalekts iz ilustrEted bF H indulJens in "bEbi tYk" in a fAmili grMp.

lANgwaJ diferensez hav ever ben H grAt bErier t H ekstenSun v pIs. H konkwest v dFalekts must presId H spred v a kUlcur TrMQt a rEs, Over a kontinent, Or t a hOl wurld. a jMniversal lAnNgwaJ promOts pIs, inSurz kulcur, n Ygments hApines. Iven wen H tuNz v a wurld ar redMsd t a fjM, H mAsteri v HIz bF H lIdiN kulcural pIpulz mFtili inflMensez H acIvment v wurld-wFd pIs n prosperiti.

lANgwaJ diferensez hav ever ben H grAt bErier t H ekstenSun v pIs. H konkwest v dFalekts must presId H spred v a kUlcur TrMQt a rEs, Over a kontinent, Or t a hOl wurld. a jMniversal lAnNgwaJ promOts pIs, inSurz kulcur, n Ygments hApines. Iven wen H tuNz v a wurld ar redMsd t a fjM, H mAsteri v HIz bF H lIdiN kulcural pIpulz mFtili inflMensez H acIvment v wurld-wFd pIs n prosperiti.

wFl veri litul progres hAz ben mEd toward developiN An internASunal lANgwaJ, muc hAz ben akompliSd bF H estAbliSment v internASunal komerSul ekscEnJ. n Yl HIz internASunal relESunz SUd bI fYsterd, weHer HE involv lANgwaJ, trEd, yrt, sFens, kompetitiv plE, Or reliJon. ---pEper-81:6



[9] in H dEz v /JIzus 3 lANgwaJez prevEld in /pAlestFn: H komon pIpal spOk som dFalekt v /EramEik; H prIsts n rAbFz spOk hIbrM; H edjMkEted klAsez n H beter strAta v JMz in Jeneral spOk grIk. H urli trAnslESon v H hIbrM skripcurz intM grIk At /AleksAndria woz responsibal in nO smYl meZur fOr H subsekwent prIdominAns v H grIk wiN v JMiS kulcur n TIoloJi. n H rFtiNz v H kristian tIcerz wur sMn t apiar in H sEm lANgwaJ. H renasyns v JMdEizm dEts from H grIk trAnslESon v H hIbrM skripcurz. His woz a vFtal inflMens wic lEter determind H drift v /pYl'z kristian kult towyrd H west insted v towyrd H Ist. ---pEper 121:6

[10]

ylredi, wiH hiz moHer'z help, /JIzus hAd mAsterd H /gAlilIan dFalekt v H EramEik tuN; n nQ hiz foHer begAn tIciN him grIk. /mEri spOk lital grIk, but /JOsef woz a flMent spIker v bOT EramEik n grIk. H tekstbUk fOr H studi v H grIk lANgwaJ woz H kopi v H hIbrM skripcurz--a komplIt verZon v H lY n H profets, inklMdiN H sylmz--wic hAd ben prezented t Hem on lIviN /Igipt. Her wur Onli 2 komplIt kopIz v H skripcurz in grIk in Yl /nAzareT, n H pozeSon v wun v Hem bF H kyrpenter'z famili mEd /JOsef's hOm a muc-sYt plEs n enEbald /JIzus, Az hI grM up, t mIt An YlmOst endles proseSon v urnest stMdents n sinsiar trMT sIkerz. befOr His jIr ended, /JIzus hAd asMmd kustodi v His prFsles mAnjMskript, hAviN ben tOld on hiz 6T birTdE HAt H sEkred bUk hAd ben prezented t him bF /AleksAndrian frendz n relativz. n in a veri SOrt tFm hI kUd rId it redili.

--pEper 123:3 trMTbUk.kom

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""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

for kEbord kompArison:

[1] HAt kontemporEri kulcural sosFeti iz a rAHer rIsent fenomenon iz wel SOn bF H prezent-dE survFval v suc primitiv ...etsetera.



eof 417dFale




I.F.E. internashunal fonetik english

t = to e = the v = of n = and

A E I O U az in Age Eat ... yoU

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I do not pronounce the h in either Herbivore or Herb (unless it's the
name)

--Star

--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > hx-bi-vP SHAVIAN *** (isn't the "h" pronounced)
>
> > Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
> > ur-bi-vor ENgliS
> > ûr-bi-vôr U2 downsize
> > ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish
>
> There's a good question. How many people pronounce or don't pronounce
>
> the "h" in herb and derivitive words? I'm a bit puzzled myself,
> since I
> hear different people from the same geographic area here saying it
> different ways. I normally don't pronounce the h.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
> The chicken came first.
>
>


=====
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I do not pronounce the h in either Herbivore or Herb (unless it's the
name)

--Star

--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > hx-bi-vP SHAVIAN *** (isn't the "h" pronounced)
>
> > Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
> > ur-bi-vor ENgliS
> > {r-bi-vtr U2 downsize
> > ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish
>
> There's a good question. How many people pronounce or don't pronounce
>
> the "h" in herb and derivitive words? I'm a bit puzzled myself,
> since I
> hear different people from the same geographic area here saying it
> different ways. I normally don't pronounce the h.
>
> --
> Ethan
>
> The chicken came first.
>
>


=====
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I've lived my entire life in the Midwestern part
of the United States. I'm forty-eight.

In my pronunciation, the h in the word "herb"
is silent, but the h in "herbivore" is pronounced.

But then "herbivore" doesn't come up much in
conversation, so others in this region may
pronounce it diferently.

--Ph. D.

----- Originala Mesagxo -----
De: "Ethan" <ethanl@...>
Al: <shavian@...>
Sendita: Dimancxon, 09an de novembro 2003, 1:42 ptm
Temo: Re: [shavian] Re: menuspel - notations that everyone can pronounce


> paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > hx-bi-vP SHAVIAN *** (isn't the "h" pronounced)
> > Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
> > ur-bi-vor ENgliS
> > ûr-bi-vôr U2 downsize
> > ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish
>
> There's a good question. How many people pronounce or don't pronounce
> the "h" in herb and derivitive words? I'm a bit puzzled myself, since I
> hear different people from the same geographic area here saying it
> different ways. I normally don't pronounce the h.



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--- In shavian@..., "m. vero" <vrn111@h...> wrote:
> Hi M.
Are you trying to make some point that a standard spelling system is
a pre-requiste to civilization?
I am not qualified to comment on such a theory.
It goes well beyond the boundaries of our discussion on the potential
benefits of the Shaw Alphabet.

Regards, Paul V.


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Erm, sorry to confuse matters but...

Certainly 'herb' 'herbivore' 'herbal', and others, have an 'h'.
(Though of course I wouldn't pronounce it.)

Thanks
Joseph

--- In shavian@..., "Phillip Driscoll" <phild@a...> wrote:
> I've lived my entire life in the Midwestern part
> of the United States. I'm forty-eight.
>
> In my pronunciation, the h in the word "herb"
> is silent, but the h in "herbivore" is pronounced.
>
> But then "herbivore" doesn't come up much in
> conversation, so others in this region may
> pronounce it diferently.
>
> --Ph. D.
>
> ----- Originala Mesagxo -----
> De: "Ethan" <ethanl@3...>
> Al: <shavian@...>
> Sendita: Dimancxon, 09an de novembro 2003, 1:42 ptm
> Temo: Re: [shavian] Re: menuspel - notations that everyone can
pronounce
>
>
> > paul vandenbrink wrote:
> >
> > > hx-bi-vP SHAVIAN *** (isn't the "h"
pronounced)
> > > Herbivore = cr-bi-vOr UNIFON
> > > ur-bi-vor ENgliS
> > > ûr-bi-vôr U2 downsize
> > > ur-bivor ur always stressed in Spanglish
> >
> > There's a good question. How many people pronounce or don't
pronounce
> > the "h" in herb and derivitive words? I'm a bit puzzled myself,
since I
> > hear different people from the same geographic area here saying it
> > different ways. I normally don't pronounce the h.


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Did anybody (I'm looking at British people here) watch the program by
Melvyn Bragg called 'The Story of English'?

It may be of interest to all concerning the stress of syllables.

In the program it stated that after Webster published his dictionary,
all children were schooled according to it, and taught to pronounce
according to his given transcripts of syllables. He gave no
indication of weight for each syllable, so teachers taught their
charges to pronounce with even stress.

Naturally English tends to stress or not stress syllables in speech,
and so that is how unschooled English people speak. In normal speech
Americans tend to stress according to the same rules, though because
of their schooling (in the past) the stress is far more even.

As I understand it this would rise to Britons writing 'mxmD' and
Americans writing 'mxmx'

What do others think on this matter? Is there anybody out there who
can remember being schooled in pronunciation? Ah nuh ah bluddi wel
wernt an thats fuh shooa!

Ta
Joseph


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