Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Hi folks,

I agree. When I learned Shavian I didn't learn it bit by bit. I learned it by attempting to make words out of them. And after I got a knack for the sounds represented in every letter. I would transliterate pieces of my favorite books.

best of regards,

Carl



hF fOlks.

hwen F lxrnd SyvWn F didan't lxrn it bit bF bit. F lxrnd it bF attemptiN t mEk wxrdz Qt v Hem. n Aftx F got a nAk fP H sQndz reprIzentad in evrI lettx. F wUd trAnzlitDEt pIsaz v mF fEvPit bUks.

best v rIgRdz,

kRal

F agrI.

Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

12/03/03 12:33:05 AM, "Ph. D." <phild@...> wrote:

>Star Raven skribis:
>>
>> I agree, however, that replacing single sounds within words is a bad
>> idea. The entire alphabet should be presented, and perhaps small words
>> and then larger words within sentances, and finally sentances should be
>> replaced. Would this work?
>
>
>Yes. I'd start with the short common words: is,
>are, was, the pronouns, demonstratives, some
>conjunctions. For example, if the following text
>appeared on the first page, the words in quotes
>would be in Shavian:
>
># "I" agree, however, "that" replacing single
># sounds within words "is" "a" bad idea. "The"
># entire alphabet should "be" presented, "and"
># perhaps small words "and" "then" larger words
># within sentances, "and" finally sentances should
># "be" replaced. Would "this" work?
>
>On the next page, more short common words could
>be introduced. Eventually the entire text would be in
>Shavian. For children, Dr. Suess is good because
>short common words are repeated over and over
>along with rhyming words. A Dr. Suess book could
>be entirely in Shavian.
>
>--Ph. D.

Here's an attached example of what that would look like.
Ethan



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12/03/03 12:33:05 AM, "Ph. D." wrote:

Star Raven skribis:

> I agree, however, that replacing single sounds within words is a bad
> idea. The entire alphabet should be presented, and perhaps small words
> and then larger words within sentances, and finally sentances should be
> replaced. Would this work?

Yes. I'd start with the short common words: is, are, was, the pronouns, demonstratives, some conjunctions. For example, if the following text appeared on the first page, the words in quotes would be in Shavian:

# "I" agree, however, "that" replacing single
# sounds within words "is" "a" bad idea. "The"
# entire alphabet should "be" presented, "and"
# perhaps small words "and" "then" larger words
# within sentances, "and" finally sentances should
# "be" replaced. Would "this" work?


On the next page, more short common words could be introduced. Eventually the entire text would be in Shavian. For children, Dr. Suess is good because short common words are repeated over and over along with rhyming words. A Dr. Suess book could be entirely in Shavian.

--Ph. D.

sQndz lFk a gUd FdIa t mI!

bHw, jP ekzAmpl abuv wUd lUk sumTiN lFk His:

F agree, however, HAt replacing single
sounds within words iz a bad idea. H
entire alphabet should bI presented, n
perhaps small words n Hen larger words
within sentances, n finally sentances should
bI replaced. Would His work?

/ITan

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hi ITan,

H kompVtx F Vz iz a lFbrXI wun. but wuns F dM get a kompVtx v mF On F wil lUk V up fP sum fonts.

TENks,

kRal

Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

12/02/03 3:21:29 PM, carl easton <shavintel16@...> wrote:

> F wil rFt in SyvWn wiH His grMp tM. but sins F dOn't On mF On kompVtx it iz
> diffikult fP mI t kIp it konsistant. hQevx V hAv mF vOt HAt F wil rFt in
> SyvWn HO F kAn't sI it Az SyvWn bIkuz F dOn't hAv a font.
>
> best rIgRdz,
>
> kRal

Carl, I take it you are not allowed to install a Shavian font on the computer
you use? That would be frustrating to me, too!

Often I do work for other people with their computer, fixing something on it or
just showing them how to do something. At the same time, if they have internet
access, I make it a point to show them my website or something in Shavian. Then
I tell them that I can make it show up in the proper way if I install a font on
their computer. I have yet to have anyone refuse to allow me to do so, if it
was their computer. Of course if you use a computer at a library, school, or
work, you might not be able to get permission to install a new font. In that
case you will have to just save up and get yourself a computer of your own.
That would be ideal in any case.

I wish you the best in that endeavor, and am glad that you are happy to use
Shavian here even if it means reading and writing the "romanji" code!

Ethan

(Shavian version attached)


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F wil rFt in SyvWn wiH His grMp tM. but sins F dOn't On mF On kompVtx it iz diffikult fP mI t kIp it konsistant. hQevx V hAv mF vOt HAt F wil rFt in SyvWn HO F kAn't sI it Az SyvWn bIkuz F dOn't hAv a font.

best rIgRdz,

kRal

/kRal, F tEk it V R not alQd t instyl a /S(E,Y?)vWn* font on H kumpVtD V Vz? HAt wUd bI frustrEtiN t mI, tM!

oftan F dM wxk fP uHD pIpl wiT HX kumpVtD, fiksinH sumTiN on it P Just SOiN Hem hQ t dM sumTiN. At H sEm tFm, if HE hAv intDnet Akses, F mEk it a pqnt t SO Hem mF websFt P sumTiN in /S_vWn.* Hen F tel Hem HAt F kAn mEk it SO up in H propD wE if F instyl a font on HX kumpVtD. F hAv jet t hAv enIwun rIfVz t alQ mI t dM sO, if it wuz HX kumpVtD. uv kPs if V Vz a kumpVtD At a lFbrXI, skMl, P wxk, V mFt not bI Ebl t get pxmiSan t instyl a nM font. in HAt kEs V wil hAv tM Just sEv up n get jPself a kumpVtD v jP On. HAt wUd bI FdIl in enI kes.

F wiS V H best in HAt endevD, n Am glAd HAt V R hApI t Vz /S_vWn* hC Ivan if it mInz rIdiN n rFtiN H "rOmynJI" kOd!

/ITan

* iz it /SEvWn P /SYvWn?

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Hello,

If anyone is interested in typing Shavian on a Mac OS X system (Jaguar
or Panther), my web page contains the necessary input method which is
set up just to generate the Unicode 4.0 Shavian code points using the
mapping found in Ross DeMeyere's fonts. You will need a Shavian font
that contains the glyphs at the Unicode 4.0 points like ESL Gothic
Unicode (esl_gothic_unicode.ttf) which can be gotten from
http://www.30below.com/~ethanl/fonts.html (and hopefully is Ethan lets
me I will put them on my web page as well).

If you would like a keymapping that differs from the "normal" one
found in Ross DeMeyere's fonts, please let me know as I should be able
to whip one out and put it on the website pretty easily. If anyone has
suggestions for a keymapping even if they do not use a Mac please let
me know as well since the Mac community may benefit from them.

I will now hopefully be updating my web site to convert all the
Unicode documents over to their final code points. Sorry for the
delay. :-)

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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I've begun transcribing a few mother goose rhymes, and in the mean
time, I am researching teaching methods for children. I am looking at
phonics, of course, and I am currently reading several books on the
subject. On my to be read list is _teach your child to read in 100 easy
steps_ and others. The best thing that we can do is to begin
transcribing more and more of the classics, the big books into shavian.

--Star, whose new computer will be finished by next weekend and who is
still trying to learn how to map a keyboard.

--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hi Star
>
> I think using Children's poetry (i.e. Bears & Squares by A.E.Milne) ,
>
> or even simple non-religous inspirational poetry such as Robert
> Frost's stuff would have a number of teaching benefits.
> Also We need to create an approach, method, course of study for
> teaching a Child Shavian.
>
> I would really love to see a study on how long it takes a child
> learning Shavian to become fully literate in English.
> And then compare it against the work needed to become literate in the
>
> T.O.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
>
> --- In shavian@..., Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@y...>
> wrote:
> > Well, being pagan, I have no religious text, and the jewish people
> > already have an alphabet fitted to their text. However I do see
> your
> > point and totally agree. I would suggest the Dr. Seuss line, but
> the
> > pictures are part of it, and we all know Dick and Jane suck for
> > teaching reading.
> >
> > Perhaps mother goose?
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > =====
> > The Piscean Warrior:
> > Protector of the Innocent
> > Defender of the Weak
> > Wanderer of the Off
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
> > http://companion.yahoo.com/
>
>


=====
The Piscean Warrior:
Protector of the Innocent
Defender of the Weak
Wanderer of the Off

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During my transliteration, I have encountered three major difficultties
deciding how best to represent the words.

The indefinite article "a"
When we learn this as children, we use a long /a/, but come the rushed
speech of adulthood we more often pronounce this as a schwa.

Ending "-le"
Such as in the ending "-able," ect. I have been representing this as
simply "lol," without the preceding schwa sound.

Ending "-ing"
This has been discussed before, but I could not find the decision. I
have transcribed this as simply "hung," without the preceding "if"
sound.

Past tense glottal stop
This seems to me the same as the previous three. Instead of schwa plus
did, I have writted this as simply "did."

Any thoughts on these?

Wow, we really are starting to move forward!
--Star

=====
The Piscean Warrior:
Protector of the Innocent
Defender of the Weak
Wanderer of the Off

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On Friday, Dec 5, 2003, at 15:40 Europe/Paris, Star Raven wrote:

Androcles and the Lion states that words should be spelled (spelt) in
their fullest form (meaning vowel pronunciation) since the weak forms
can be easily derived from the strong.

> During my transliteration, I have encountered three major difficultties
> deciding how best to represent the words.
>
> The indefinite article "a"
> When we learn this as children, we use a long /a/, but come the rushed
> speech of adulthood we more often pronounce this as a schwa.
>

In the notes in Androcles and the Lion it states that "a" should always
be ado, and "an" should always be ado+none.

> Ending "-le"
> Such as in the ending "-able," ect. I have been representing this as
> simply "lol," without the preceding schwa sound.
>

Androcles and the Lion puts an ado before the loll in these cases. I
do not necessarily do this. I would have to check on which words I
vary.

> Ending "-ing"
> This has been discussed before, but I could not find the decision. I
> have transcribed this as simply "hung," without the preceding "if"
> sound.
>

I put the if before the hung just like Androcles and the Lion.

> Past tense glottal stop
> This seems to me the same as the previous three. Instead of schwa plus
> did, I have writted this as simply "did."
>

Yes, for something like "killed" you do not put a vowel between the
the loll and dead.

> Any thoughts on these?
>

Note that even though I am quoting practices done in Androcles and the
Lion I am stating them because I also do them, except where noted. I
do not follow Androcles blindly since I heartily disagree with having
loll+if for the true pronunciation of loll+eat. :-)

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@...>

> Androcles and the Lion states that words should be spelled (spelt) in
> their fullest form (meaning vowel pronunciation) since the weak forms
> can be easily derived from the strong.
[snip]

Scott - I fully agree with all your points. Androcles and the Lion is a good
guide for points like these.

A good rule of thumb is: where there is a syllable, no matter how swallowed
up the vowel sound is, always use "ado". E.g. "faded" becomes "fEdad",
"able" becomes "Ebal", "better" becomes "betD" (rhotic schwa).

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@...>

> Androcles and the Lion states that words should be spelled (spelt) in
> their fullest form (meaning vowel pronunciation) since the weak forms
> can be easily derived from the strong.
[snip]

Scott - I fully agree with all your points. Androcles and the Lion is a good
guide for points like these.

A good rule of thumb is: where there is a syllable, no matter how swallowed
up the vowel sound is, always use "ado". E.g. "faded" becomes "fEdad",
"able" becomes "Ebal", "better" becomes "betD" (rhotic schwa).

Hugh B


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Hi Star.

I believe that it's better to use consistently use Ado to represent
the indefinate article.

As for -le sound. I've always written it as Ado Lol. It is so
common, I wish we had a seperate letter for it, like we do in the R-
sounds. We could call it Elmo.
I also insert a Ado when a word ends in a syllabic Nun or Mime.
I always use an Ado in front, because I believe it's necessary. They
are not as common, so it's not as big an issue. (i.e. blossom,
common)

I have always pronounced the If in the -ing ending.
I think this is the unstressed If, that Hugh mentioned previously as
the one other vowel with an unsttressed version. The Ing sound might
be given its own letter as well since it is quite common.

-d, -ed: This is not as consistent as the -le, -l, -n, and -m
endings.
I agree with Ethan that
Words ending
with -d can often have that d pronounced as a t, d, or ed.
So I write it accordingly: Tot, Dead, or Ado-Dead.

Regards, Paul V.

P.S. I think the best solution is to add Letter constructs for the
commoner sounds, rather than expanding the Phoneme definition
haphazardly.

P.P.S Good luck with your Computer Install.


--- In shavian@..., Scott Harrison <scott@m...> wrote:
>
> On Friday, Dec 5, 2003, at 15:40 Europe/Paris, Star Raven wrote:
>
> Androcles and the Lion states that words should be spelled
(spelt) in
> their fullest form (meaning vowel pronunciation) since the weak
forms
> can be easily derived from the strong.
>
> > During my transliteration, I have encountered three major
difficultties
> > deciding how best to represent the words.
> >
> > The indefinite article "a"
> > When we learn this as children, we use a long /a/, but come the
rushed
> > speech of adulthood we more often pronounce this as a schwa.
> >
>
> In the notes in Androcles and the Lion it states that "a" should
always
> be ado, and "an" should always be ado+none.
>
> > Ending "-le"
> > Such as in the ending "-able," ect. I have been representing
this as
> > simply "lol," without the preceding schwa sound.
> >
>
> Androcles and the Lion puts an ado before the loll in these
cases. I
> do not necessarily do this. I would have to check on which words
I
> vary.
>
> > Ending "-ing"
> > This has been discussed before, but I could not find the
decision. I
> > have transcribed this as simply "hung," without the
preceding "if"
> > sound.
> >
>
> I put the if before the hung just like Androcles and the
Lion.
>
> > Past tense glottal stop
> > This seems to me the same as the previous three. Instead of
schwa plus
> > did, I have writted this as simply "did."
> >
>
> Yes, for something like "killed" you do not put a vowel
between the
> the loll and dead.
>
> > Any thoughts on these?
> >
>
> Note that even though I am quoting practices done in
Androcles and the
> Lion I am stating them because I also do them, except where
noted. I
> do not follow Androcles blindly since I heartily disagree with
having
> loll+if for the true pronunciation of loll+eat. :-)
>
> --
> Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86


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12/05/03 9:40:50 AM, Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

>During my transliteration, I have encountered three major difficultties
>deciding how best to represent the words.
>
>The indefinite article "a"
>When we learn this as children, we use a long /a/, but come the rushed
>speech of adulthood we more often pronounce this as a schwa.
>
>Ending "-le"
>Such as in the ending "-able," ect. I have been representing this as
>simply "lol," without the preceding schwa sound.
>
>Ending "-ing"
>This has been discussed before, but I could not find the decision. I
>have transcribed this as simply "hung," without the preceding "if"
>sound.
>
>Past tense glottal stop
>This seems to me the same as the previous three. Instead of schwa plus
>did, I have writted this as simply "did."
>
>Any thoughts on these?
>
>Wow, we really are starting to move forward!
>--Star

When I went to school, I was confused by the use of the long "Ay" sound for the
article "a". I had always said it as an Ado or Up, never Age. So I learned to
say "ay" for a teacher, and pronounce it normally all other times! I would
suggest that it's best to use Ado to represent that article.

-le: I've always written it as Lol without any preceding Ado. Some people say
it with a schwa sound, some don't. I don't think the schwa is phonemic there,
so I use it without. I do the same thing when a word ends in a syllabic Nun or
Mime: I don't use any Ado in front, because I believe it's unnecessary. If
anybody uses that sound, it would be implied for them, and if anybody doesn't
use that sound, to write it in could be confusing.

I have always pronounced the If in the -ing ending. When I say "Singing", I
always pronounce it siNiN, never sNN or siNN! Please use the If. Anybody else
with thoughts on this?

-d, -ed: This is a bit different from the -le, -l, -n, and -m endings. l, m,
and n can all be syllables by themselves, whereas d cannot. Also, words ending
with -d can often have that d pronounced as a t, d, or ed. My preference has
been to write it accordingly: Tot, Dead, or Ado-Dead.

Ethan


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