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--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
<pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:

> We need to define the extent of the problem before
> attempting to address the all the issues.
>
> 1. awe, ah, on. Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans

not Yl amerikans. fUtbYl plEDz dOnt sE fUtbyl, dM HE?

> 3. array, err(urge) Unrealistic Distinctions for Americans

stres iz not unnOn in amerika, iz it?

> 11. Missing letter for EU sound ==> Euchre, Beautiful, few, new,
cute

bjiUtifal, fjiU, njiU, kjiUt?

> 12. unstressed soft i (If) at end of British pronounced words
(silly)

besFds unstrest [i] at He end ov [ani], sum
dikSuneriz nQ Add unstrest [U] az in frUgAliti


> Regards, Paul V.





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--- In shavian@..., John Warner <john.warner@l...> wrote:

>
> ………but when I
> receive e-mails with Shavian script in them I do the following (as I
> have problems with HTML e-mails too):
>
> 1 copy the text out for the e-mail.
> 2 place in a word processor or (as I prefer) a text editor
> 3 change the font to one of the Shavian ones
> 4 I then can read the message as it was intended.

> John Warner.


F must dM it His wE tM.
iz HAr Ani uHD wE?

ragyrdz,
/dEvid s




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--- In shavian@..., "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...> wrote:



> Neither is shavian british nor unamerican, it is simply
> english laid bare,

> Thanks
> Joseph


His NAs tM bI Ha VnifFih prinsipal apon Nwic progres kAn bI mEd.







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----- Original Message -----
From: "dshepx" <dshep@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 6:39 AM
Subject: [shavian] Re: Standardizaton - Waiting in the wings ?


> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...>
> wrote:
>
> > I agree with most of what you say. I take exception with your
> > statement that your changes to ha-ha and huNG would make Shaw
> > Shaw closer to the original intended by the inventor.
> > I consider that revision. A revision that improves the Shaw
> > Alphabets internal consistency and makes it easier to remember
> > and learn. All well and good.
>
>
> This is not a revision, it is a correction. A correction of what must
> have been a typographical error. The keywords ha and hung were,
> how can it be doubted, somehow interchanged prior to printing and
> not caught in time. It would not make the Shaw alphabet closer to
> the original intended by the author, it would make it once again the
> actual original.
>
> ds

Forgive me... but why "must" it have been a typographical error? If Read
corrected the reversal error of 'air' and 'err' in Quikscript, why did he
not make the QS 'hung' letter (can't remember its new name) a deep letter as
it "always should have been"?

I see no conclusive evidence that those letters should have been the other
way round. It's nothing to do with 'voiced'/'unvoiced' in this case; to me
they are just conveniently stuck in the 'tall'/'deep' row along with other
leftovers, namely 'yea'/'woe' (both voiced!).

Until such evidence is produced, a reversal of 'hung' and 'haha' would be
nothing short of a revision.

Hugh B




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> I think Shavian should always be written rhotically, even if the
writer
> does not have a rhotic dialect, on the principle that it's easier
for
> a reader to ignore distinctions he does not make than to insert
ones
> missing from the original. (For example, lY should be unambiguously
> "law" and never "lore", even for those who pronounce those words
> identically.)
>
> Cheers,
> Philip


Precisely. Even if you make no distinction, bear first in mind those
who do.

Anybody who does not use the rhotic forms where appropiate is
mispelling. There is no argument about this.

Thanks
Joseph




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Hi Ethan
Right on.
After thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense to have
a Shaw letter that encompasses both of these very similar sounds.
(yu,eu).
Invariably it would be pronounced "Yu" at the beginning of the
syllable and "Eeu" elsewhere.
Regards, Paul V.

P.S. Star, This would be a useful footnote.
_____________attached______________________________



--- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > Hi Joseph & Star
> > I guess I must be somewhere in the middle of this great divide
> > because I hear
> > hear something inbetween. I will call it the Stephanie Sound
because
> > she would make it with great discrimination at least once on
most of
> > the Bob (Newhart) TV Episodes. It was Euwh. A sound of disgust
and
> > disapproval. It didn't sound like "you". It didn't sound
like "Oo"
> > in Who.
> > It was something in-between. It seems fairly rare in my accent
group.
>
> I think I know whereof you speak. I've heard it before, and to me
it
> sounded like a variation of the Yew, You, "U" phoneme. It's a
> diphthong, best described as "iu" or "eeoo". It's not two
separate
> sounds, but an even fade which starts with "ee" and ends
with "oo". I
> always figured "Yew" was the right letter, "y" + "oo" OR "ee"
+ "oo".
>
> --
> Ethan




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Hi Shep
As computer programmer, a correction is the problem and a revision
is the solution.
Also, 50 years is way too late to deal with a major correction in
the way that you suggest.
Regards, Paul V.
_____________________________attached________________

--- In shavian@..., "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink"
> <pvandenbrink@s...>
> wrote:
>
> > I agree with most of what you say. I take exception with your
> > statement that your changes to ha-ha and huNG would make Shaw
> > Shaw closer to the original intended by the inventor.
> > I consider that revision. A revision that improves the Shaw
> > Alphabets internal consistency and makes it easier to remember
> > and learn. All well and good.
>
>
> This is not a revision, it is a correction. A correction of what
must
> have been a typographical error. The keywords ha and hung were,
> how can it be doubted, somehow interchanged prior to printing and
> not caught in time. It would not make the Shaw alphabet closer to
> the original intended by the author, it would make it once again
the
> actual original.
>
> ds




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12/22/03 1:56:46 PM, "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@...> wrote:

>Forgive me... but why "must" it have been a typographical error? If Read
>corrected the reversal error of 'air' and 'err' in Quikscript, why did he
>not make the QS 'hung' letter (can't remember its new name) a deep letter as
>it "always should have been"?
>
>I see no conclusive evidence that those letters should have been the other
>way round. It's nothing to do with 'voiced'/'unvoiced' in this case; to me
>they are just conveniently stuck in the 'tall'/'deep' row along with other
>leftovers, namely 'yea'/'woe' (both voiced!).
>
>Until such evidence is produced, a reversal of 'hung' and 'haha' would be
>nothing short of a revision.
>
>Hugh B

As I see it, Shavian has followed a certain standard for long enough now that to
change it in any way would in fact be a revision. Revisions are fine, but they
must be acknowleged as such, so people are not confused. Corrections are also
fine, but they must be done immediately, as soon as it is known that there is
something wrong, and before it has become a standard.

Now we have the Shavian standard even further codified in Unicode 4 and ISO-
10646. This means that any revision done would probably not recieve a whole lot
of support, since the de facto standard is already "set in stone" as a result of
more than 40 years of use without revisions.

As far as the problems with Shavian, are they really that bad? I don't think
so. Do "Err" and "Array" have to be so similar for people to learn them? I
don't think so. We learn our current alphabet as children, and there's almost
no structure whatsoever! Think of pairs like the voiceless/voiced consonant
pairs t/d, k/g, f/v, sh/? (sure/measure) and the vowels a/ah/aw/au/augh/o/ough
(can all be pronounced "Ah" in my dialect!), and all the rest of the crazy
things you find in TO, and you quickly realize that it's a cinch for anybody to
learn that Err (urge) and Array are pairs, and that Haha is "h" and Hung is
"ng". No big deal, I say. I don't think anybody could be as critical of this
alphabet as its staunchest supporters!

Ethan








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>
> As for air/err/, this problem is compounded by the fact that
> the majority pronunciation in America of /err/ usually rhymes
> with /where/, not were — sorry, that may have been a bad
> example, /were/ can rhyme with /where/ as well in some
> speech areas. /Urge/ would have been a better choice of
> keyword for that sound, would it not? Furthermore, I
> pronounce /air/ with the more open sound of /at/; as does
> David Attenborough, which I've just noticed on television.
>

> regards,
> David S

On this point, is the word 'err' the wrong word to describe the
sound? as it can have two different pronunciations. 'Err' and 'air'
should rhyme with 'her' and 'hair', respectively.

I hope this does clear up a point. It would be funny if it was all
just a big misunderstanding.

Thanks
Joseph




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--- In shavian@..., "dshepx" <dshep@g...> wrote:
> --- In shavian@..., "Joseph Smith" <stetsdigs@h...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> > Neither is shavian british nor unamerican, it is simply
> > english laid bare,
>
> > Thanks
> > Joseph
>
>
> His NAs tM bI Ha VnifFih prinsipal apon Nwic progres kAn bI mEd.

I agree wholly upon this. Too many discussions centre around the
difference between british and american pronunciation. But people
fail to realise that the differences are quite small and shavian does
its best to minimise them (you probably couldn't get much better that
satisfied everyone).

I try to defend shavian in the orignal, as I feel it is perfectly
good for english. But please, please, do not mistake me for a person
who is defending RP as some sort of 'better' english. My accent is
probably as equally far from RP as some non-british accents, but I do
not see shavian as an RP device.

Thanks
Joseph

An aside: I understand that you wish to use shavian more, so do I,
but this group will not and cannot display shavian for me and others.




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