Shavian eGroup Archive Browser
From: paul vandenbrink
Date: 2004-05-13 21:23:07 #
Subject: [shavian] Names and things
Toggle Shavian
Hey Hugh
You can be more ingenious than that.
(i.e. shaw, shawalf, shawelf, shawletters)
None are apparently in use.
Let's not be boring?
Regards, Paul V.
___________________attached_________________
--- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
wrote:
> What about just list@s...?
>
> Hugh B
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From: Star Raven
Date: 2004-05-14 00:39:53 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Names and things
Toggle Shavian
ROFL! Paul, we're not exciting, we're shavianologists!
Gotta love you guys though,
--Star
--- paul vandenbrink <pvandenbrink@...> wrote:
> Hey Hugh
> You can be more ingenious than that.
> (i.e. shaw, shawalf, shawelf, shawletters)
> None are apparently in use.
> Let's not be boring?
> Regards, Paul V.
> ___________________attached_________________
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> > What about just list@s...?
> >
> > Hugh B
>
>
>
=====
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Kierkegaard
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From: Philip Newton
Date: 2004-05-14 05:28:21 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Names and things
Toggle Shavian
Maybe you misunderstood him? He didn't literally write "@s..." (at s
dot dot dot) but "at shavian dot org", but the Yahoo!Groups interface
blanks out email addresses so you can only see the first letter of the
domain name.
On 13 May 2004 at 20:21, paul vandenbrink wrote:
> Hey Hugh
> You can be more ingenious than that.
> (i.e. shaw, shawalf, shawelf, shawletters)
> None are apparently in use.
> Let's not be boring?
> Regards, Paul V.
> ___________________attached_________________
> --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> wrote:
> > What about just list@s...?
> >
> > Hugh B
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
--
Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
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From: Paul Vandenbrink
Date: 2004-05-14 07:11:03 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Names and things
Toggle Shavian
Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were looking for a name for a new Yahoo group.
Never mind, Paul V.
At 12:28 AM 5/14/04, you wrote:
>Maybe you misunderstood him? He didn't literally write "@s..." (at s
>dot dot dot) but "at shavian dot org", but the Yahoo!Groups interface
>blanks out email addresses so you can only see the first letter of the
>domain name.
>
>On 13 May 2004 at 20:21, paul vandenbrink wrote:
>
> > Hey Hugh
> > You can be more ingenious than that.
> > (i.e. shaw, shawalf, shawelf, shawletters)
> > None are apparently in use.
> > Let's not be boring?
> > Regards, Paul V.
> > ___________________attached_________________
> > --- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...>
> > wrote:
> > > What about just list@s...?
> > >
> > > Hugh B
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>Philip Newton <Philip.Newton@...>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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From: Joe
Date: 2004-05-14 23:49:02 #
Subject: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Toggle Shavian
--- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...> wrote:
It is a shame it's still under
> Copyright?. I could have made a copy and forwarded you the original.
> Does anyone know who owns the Copyright?
>
> Regards, Paul V.
Is it still under copyright? If it were, I'd expect the copyright holder to have published
a new edition by now.
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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2004-05-15 14:36:16 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Toggle Shavian
Copyright for books provides for protection 70 years after the death of the
author. Since Shaw died in 1950 (IIRC), I think the *Roman alphabet* version
of Androcles is still copyrighted until at least 2020.
I'm not sure that *Shaw alphabet* text can even be copyrighted at all. Even
if technically it could be, how would the majority of bureaucrats even find
out at all if the Shavian text they were looking at were a straight copy
from the original book?
However it's worth checking, if we are to produce a commercially-available
product that would be easily spotted as a reproduction of the original book.
Does anyone have a copy handy? Could someone check the inside cover for
copyright notices?
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <allegrox_2000@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:47 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> It is a shame it's still under
> > Copyright?. I could have made a copy and forwarded you the original.
> > Does anyone know who owns the Copyright?
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
> Is it still under copyright? If it were, I'd expect the copyright holder
to have published
> a new edition by now.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2004-05-15 14:36:16 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Toggle Shavian
Copyright for books provides for protection 70 years after the death of the
author. Since Shaw died in 1950 (IIRC), I think the *Roman alphabet* version
of Androcles is still copyrighted until at least 2020.
I'm not sure that *Shaw alphabet* text can even be copyrighted at all. Even
if technically it could be, how would the majority of bureaucrats even find
out at all if the Shavian text they were looking at were a straight copy
from the original book?
However it's worth checking, if we are to produce a commercially-available
product that would be easily spotted as a reproduction of the original book.
Does anyone have a copy handy? Could someone check the inside cover for
copyright notices?
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <allegrox_2000@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:47 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> It is a shame it's still under
> > Copyright?. I could have made a copy and forwarded you the original.
> > Does anyone know who owns the Copyright?
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
> Is it still under copyright? If it were, I'd expect the copyright holder
to have published
> a new edition by now.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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From: Paige Gabhart
Date: 2004-05-15 17:12:59 #
Subject: RE: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Toggle Shavian
I do not practice copyright law so this is primarily based on general legal theory. First, I believe you are quoting the current copyright law regarding the author receiving copyright protection for 70 years after his death. Was English copyright law circa 1950 the same as it is now? American law wasn’t. At that time, a United States copyright was good for 27 years and could be renewed one time for an additional 27 years. The United States has now altered our law to match the copyright law of the rest of the world. Secondly, even if the 70 year period now applies to new works, does it apply retroactively to works originally copyrighted in 1913, the year Androcles and the Lion appeared? Thirdly, I believe your comment that the *Roman alphabet* version of Androcles is copyrighted is incorrect. Copyrights now protect the author’s interest for all representations of the work, including print and electronic media such as tapes, videos, film, stage productions, etc. Therefore, I would expect that a copyright would prevent you from presenting a protected work in any media that is understandable by others. Clearly, you could not publish an English language literary work transliterated into the Cyrillic or Greek alphabets without having first obtained the copyright owner’s permission. The fact that most English speakers would be unable to read it is irrelevant. Logically, this precludes publishing a copyrighted work in the Shaw alphabet as well.
The copyright page of the Penguin Books edition of Androcles and the Lion states that “[a]ny non-copyright work may be transliterated into the Shaw Alphabet without permission. In the case of a work still in copyright, however, permission must, of course, be obtained from the owner of the copyright.” It goes on to state that “…business connected with Bernard Shaw’s plays is now in the hands of THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AUTHORS, PLAYWRIGHTS AND COMPOSERS at 94 Drayton Gardens, London SW10 (Telephone, Fremantle 6642), to which all inquiries and applications for licences to perform should be addressed and performing fees paid.”
Whether the society still represents Shaw’s plays is unknown. But it should be checked as the purpose of copyright law is to protect artists’ works. The relevant issue should not be whether one thinks it likely one would be caught publishing a copyrighted work. Under that theory, one would decide whether to shoplift based on the prevalence of security measures. :)
Paige Gabhart
-----Original Message-----
From: Hugh Birkenhead [mailto:mixsynth@...]
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 9:36 AM
To: shavian@...
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Copyright for books provides for protection 70 years after the death of the
author. Since Shaw died in 1950 (IIRC), I think the *Roman alphabet* version
of Androcles is still copyrighted until at least 2020.
I'm not sure that *Shaw alphabet* text can even be copyrighted at all. Even
if technically it could be, how would the majority of bureaucrats even find
out at all if the Shavian text they were looking at were a straight copy
from the original book?
However it's worth checking, if we are to produce a commercially-available
product that would be easily spotted as a reproduction of the original book.
Does anyone have a copy handy? Could someone check the inside cover for
copyright notices?
Hugh B
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe" <allegrox_2000@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 11:47 PM
Subject: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
> --- In shavian@..., "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@s...>
wrote:
> It is a shame it's still under
> > Copyright?. I could have made a copy and forwarded you the original.
> > Does anyone know who owns the Copyright?
> >
> > Regards, Paul V.
>
> Is it still under copyright? If it were, I'd expect the copyright holder
to have published
> a new edition by now.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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From: Ethan
Date: 2004-05-16 01:56:45 #
Subject: [shavian] Androcles now public domain
Toggle Shavian
Androcles and the Lion has been released by Project Gutenberg, and can
be found at http://www.gutenberg.net/etext/4003
This means Androcles is public domain in the US for certain, and
probably in all other countries as well. I found another source of this
work in Australia, http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/aut/shaw_gb.html
This site states that all the texts they provide are public domain in
Australia, and all countries which have signed the Berne Convention -
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/faq/#q7
Unless the copyright was renewed on the Shaw Alphabet version of
Androcles, which doesn't appear to be the case, then it is permissible
to republish without restriction. Have fun!
--
·???????? - Ethan
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From: Hugh Birkenhead
Date: 2004-05-16 02:34:08 #
Subject: Re: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
Toggle Shavian
----- Original Message -----
From: Paige Gabhart <mailto:pgabhart@...>
To: shavian@... <mailto:shavian@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 5:12 PM
Subject: RE: [shavian] Re: getting hold of Shaw's Androcles and the Lion
I do not practice copyright law so this is primarily based on general legal theory. First, I believe you are quoting the current copyright law regarding the author receiving copyright protection for 70 years after his death. Was English copyright law circa 1950 the same as it is now? American law wasn’t. At that time, a United States copyright was good for 27 years and could be renewed one time for an additional 27 years. The United States has now altered our law to match the copyright law of the rest of the world. Secondly, even if the 70 year period now applies to new works, does it apply retroactively to works originally copyrighted in 1913, the year Androcles and the Lion appeared?
It's true that the US copyright extension act of 1998 was not retroactive - it did not bring any works BACK into copyright. You're right about that - copyright protection at the time would only have been for 56 years maximum and would not have been affected by the extension act or the copyright act of 1976. The Roman Text of Androcles and the Lion is definitely in the public domain in the US - project Gutenberg (www.gutenberg.net <http://www.gutenberg.net> ) has it there.
However, the European Union change from 50 to 70 years after death of author WAS retroactive. Since Shaw died in 1950, this would mean that all his works are still protected under British copyright law until 2020. So technically, as I understand it, we could not use the roman text in a book to be sold in the UK, although it would be OK in the US.
Thirdly, I believe your comment that the *[shaw] alphabet* version of Androcles is [not] copyrighted is incorrect. Copyrights now protect the author’s interest for all representations of the work, including print and electronic media such as tapes, videos, film, stage productions, etc. Therefore, I would expect that a copyright would prevent you from presenting a protected work in any media that is understandable by others. Clearly, you could not publish an English language literary work transliterated into the Cyrillic or Greek alphabets without having first obtained the copyright owner’s permission. The fact that most English speakers would be unable to read it is irrelevant. Logically, this precludes publishing a copyrighted work in the Shaw alphabet as well.
By what you say above, it wouldn't be a problem to reproduce a Shaw Alphabet version of Androcles and the Lion in the US. After all, Androcles and the Lion is in the public domain there, and the Shaw Alphabet transliteration is merely a different way of representing the exact same words.
The copyright page of the Penguin Books edition of Androcles and the Lion states that “[a]ny non-copyright work may be transliterated into the Shaw Alphabet without permission. In the case of a work still in copyright, however, permission must, of course, be obtained from the owner of the copyright.” It goes on to state that “…business connected with Bernard Shaw’s plays is now in the hands of THE INCORPORATED SOCIETY OF AUTHORS, PLAYWRIGHTS AND COMPOSERS at 94 Drayton Gardens, London SW10 (Telephone, Fremantle 6642), to which all inquiries and applications for licences to perform should be addressed and performing fees paid.”
Whether the society still represents Shaw’s plays is unknown. But it should be checked as the purpose of copyright law is to protect artists’ works. The relevant issue should not be whether one thinks it likely one would be caught publishing a copyrighted work. Under that theory, one would decide whether to shoplift based on the prevalence of security measures. :)
If the original Androcles and the Lion is not copyrighted any more in the States, and the Shaw Alphabet transliteration is nothing more than an alternative representation of the original text, what is to stop us from going ahead with reprinting it ourselves? Maybe we can't do that in Europe, but why not in the States at least?
Paige Gabhart
Hugh B
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