Shavian eGroup Archive Browser

Maybe what I said should be clarified to avoid confusion. I wasn't saying
use it for any noun you think is important -- I meant if you would use a
capital letter deliberately for naming purposes in TO, use the namer dot in
Shavian. I didn't mean use it for any non-name that you want to add emphasis
to. I think the clue to the recommended usage of the "namer dot" is the name
itself!

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:13 PM
Subject: [shavian] God and NASA


> Hi Hugh & Star
> The problem with capitalizing Important Abstract Nouns, is that
> occasionally, those words are real names of people or things. Names
> like Charity, Rose, Prudence, Summer, Rock (Hudson) are used in the
> abstract form and also as names of Real things. Rather than add
> these exceptions and then have to puzzle out what we are talking
> about lets just leave it be. We could maybe use an asterisk instead.
> As for G-d, you can just use one of his many names instead of the
> confusing Generic term and then add a namer dot.
>
> Regards, Paul V.
>
> --- In shavian@..., Ethan <ethanl@3...> wrote:
>> Hugh Birkenhead wrote:
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@y...
>> > <mailto:celestraof12worlds@y...>>
>> >
>> > > God, Death, Fate, War...
>> > Ggod, GdeT, GfEt, GwP. There's no reason why you shouldn't use
> the namer
>> > dot for any word where you would deliberately use a capital
> letter for
>> > reasons of importance (like with the above words).
>>
>> I agree.
>> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



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I read the following review of the Shaw Alphabet, and I have a
number of quibbles about his analysis of the Shaw Alphabet, but I
will let the other comment first.

Shaw Phonetic Alphabet

There are many reasons that Kingsley Read's alphabet would be better
than our current one. Our alphabet has a fixed number of 26 letters.
These letters often represent more than one sound, causing numerous
spelling problems. The Shavian Alphabet has 40 letters and each
letter has its own sound. This means that words could be spelled the
same way that they are said. Other alphabets besides the Roman one
could also be replaced by the Shavian Alphabet. New letters could be
added to represent sounds not found in the English language. Shavian
is also more constant than our current script. There are no capital
letters or cursive writing styles; the letters are always the same.
For proper nouns, a dot is placed above letters that would be
capitalized. The Shavian Alphabet would also be better than using
English to write phonetically. "wen V rFt TiNZ fOnetaklI VziN QD
kDant Alfabet, fP sum rEZun pIpal TiNk it is ileJabal n strEnJ".

The Shavian characters are new and words written in them would not
seem strange once a person learned the alphabet. There would be no
confusion caused by changing the spelling of preexisting words.

Despite these advantages, there have been few efforts to encourage
the use of the Shavian Alphabet. This is due to many of the same
reasons that the Deseret Alphabet disappeared. For the Shavian
Alphabet to replace English, when it was first developed an
unimaginable amount of time and money would have been needed to
translate and print all current English books.
In our day of word processors, virtual or hyper-text and spell
checkers it is possible, but it would be exceedingly difficult to
justify an effort of this kind to the current readers of English.

Another reason it has never caught on was that its main push was by
a dead man. After the Shaw Alphabet was invented and Androcles and
the Lion was printed in it, George Bernard Shaw's will was
fulfilled. Since then no one else was willing to take up the cause,
the Shavian alphabet effectively died.





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Before I read this: whose analysis is it? Have you got a URL?

Hugh B

----- Original Message -----
From: "paul vandenbrink" <pvandenbrink@...>
To: <shavian@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:28 PM
Subject: [shavian] Reasons to admire the Shaw Alphabet


>I read the following review of the Shaw Alphabet, and I have a
> number of quibbles about his analysis of the Shaw Alphabet, but I
> will let the other comment first.
>
> Shaw Phonetic Alphabet
>
> There are many reasons that Kingsley Read's alphabet would be better
> than our current one. Our alphabet has a fixed number of 26 letters.
> These letters often represent more than one sound, causing numerous
> spelling problems. The Shavian Alphabet has 40 letters and each
> letter has its own sound. This means that words could be spelled the
> same way that they are said. Other alphabets besides the Roman one
> could also be replaced by the Shavian Alphabet. New letters could be
> added to represent sounds not found in the English language. Shavian
> is also more constant than our current script. There are no capital
> letters or cursive writing styles; the letters are always the same.
> For proper nouns, a dot is placed above letters that would be
> capitalized. The Shavian Alphabet would also be better than using
> English to write phonetically. "wen V rFt TiNZ fOnetaklI VziN QD
> kDant Alfabet, fP sum rEZun pIpal TiNk it is ileJabal n strEnJ".
>
> The Shavian characters are new and words written in them would not
> seem strange once a person learned the alphabet. There would be no
> confusion caused by changing the spelling of preexisting words.
>
> Despite these advantages, there have been few efforts to encourage
> the use of the Shavian Alphabet. This is due to many of the same
> reasons that the Deseret Alphabet disappeared. For the Shavian
> Alphabet to replace English, when it was first developed an
> unimaginable amount of time and money would have been needed to
> translate and print all current English books.
> In our day of word processors, virtual or hyper-text and spell
> checkers it is possible, but it would be exceedingly difficult to
> justify an effort of this kind to the current readers of English.
>
> Another reason it has never caught on was that its main push was by
> a dead man. After the Shaw Alphabet was invented and Androcles and
> the Lion was printed in it, George Bernard Shaw's will was
> fulfilled. Since then no one else was willing to take up the cause,
> the Shavian alphabet effectively died.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>


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Yes died, just like klingon at the termination of Star Trek or
Tenktonese after the end of the Alien Nation saga, or even the GSA
after there were no more Commander Keen games. Yeesh.

Although with respect, this is a language read by literally dozens of
people!

I'm making another effort to use my new notebook to work on my shavian
handwriting. At least it's better than my TO handwriting. I have notes
that I can't even read not long after I wrote them.

Oh well, we shall not be moved!
--Star

=====
Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
--Lorne's Mom (from Angel)



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Yes died, just like klingon at the termination of Star Trek or
Tenktonese after the end of the Alien Nation saga, or even the GSA
after there were no more Commander Keen games. Yeesh.

Although with respect, this is a language read by literally dozens of
people!

I'm making another effort to use my new notebook to work on my shavian
handwriting. At least it's better than my TO handwriting. I have notes
that I can't even read not long after I wrote them.

Oh well, we shall not be moved!
--Star

=====
Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
--Lorne's Mom (from Angel)



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paul vandenbrink wrote:
> I read the following review of the Shaw Alphabet, and I have a
> number of quibbles about his analysis of the Shaw Alphabet, but I
> will let the other comment first.
>
Do I qualify as "other"?

> Shaw Phonetic Alphabet

Not phonetic, phonemic.

>
> There are many reasons that Kingsley Read's alphabet would be better
> than our current one. Our alphabet has a fixed number of 26 letters.
> These letters often represent more than one sound, causing numerous
> spelling problems. The Shavian Alphabet has 40 letters

48 letters...

> and each
> letter has its own sound. This means that words could be spelled the
> same way that they are said. Other alphabets besides the Roman one
> could also be replaced by the Shavian Alphabet. New letters could be
> added to represent sounds not found in the English language.

Not exactly what Shaw had in mind, also irrelevant when discussing the
merits of Shavian over TO.
> Shavian
> is also more constant than our current script. There are no capital
> letters or cursive writing styles; the letters are always the same.
> For proper nouns, a dot is placed above letters that would be
> capitalized.

The namer dot is placed *in front* of the letter, not above it.

> The Shavian Alphabet would also be better than using
> English to write phonetically. "wen V rFt TiNZ fOnetaklI VziN QD
> kDant Alfabet, fP sum rEZun pIpal TiNk it is ileJabal n strEnJ".

Actually, it's not English, but Latin or "traditional" orthography
(hereafter TO) which he calls English. It's not a language but an alphabet.

>
> The Shavian characters are new and words written in them would not
> seem strange once a person learned the alphabet. There would be no
> confusion caused by changing the spelling of preexisting words.
>
> Despite these advantages, there have been few efforts to encourage
> the use of the Shavian Alphabet. This is due to many of the same
> reasons that the Deseret Alphabet disappeared.

Last I knew, Deseret had not disappeared, but can still be found in its
entirety on the internet. The Deseret section of Unicode can be found
just ahead of the Shavian section.

> For the Shavian
> Alphabet to replace English, when it was first developed an
> unimaginable amount of time and money would have been needed to
> translate and print all current English books.

The goal of Shavian has never been to replace English, but to spell it!
Assuming, though, that the author meant TO rather than English, the
goal has always been to have Shavian accepted as an alternative to TO,
rather than to replace it. There will always be a place for TO.

> In our day of word processors, virtual or hyper-text and spell
> checkers it is possible, but it would be exceedingly difficult to
> justify an effort of this kind to the current readers of English.

No such effort is needed.

>
> Another reason it has never caught on was that its main push was by
> a dead man.

If that were the case, it never would have happened. It takes
interested parties to pull something like this off, and there were quite
a few people truely interested in it after GBS died.

> After the Shaw Alphabet was invented and Androcles and
> the Lion was printed in it, George Bernard Shaw's will was
> fulfilled. Since then no one else was willing to take up the cause,
> the Shavian alphabet effectively died.

What then of the Shaw-Script Quarterly? That was published after
Androcles, wasn't it? And what of all the people since who have "taken
up the cause?"

--
·???????? - Ethan
My name in Shavian and Latin text


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No money? No problem.

I first stumbled on to Androcles in an Alabama library
six years ago.

Later, at home in the Hudson Valley I found the
regional library system had as least 8 copies - all in
mint condittion, strangely enough.

By taking scans of pages, I now boast my own copy,
without paying a cent. And Penguin Books has not sent
any goons to my door either.

--- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:

> There is a slight problem... they usually want money
> for their books,
> and I have none to spare at the moment. I'll
> remember that though,
> thanks.
>
> --Star
>
> --- "Ph. D." <phild@...> wrote:
> > Go to http://www.bookfinder.com
> >
> > Put in Shaw as Author
> >
> > Put in Androcles as Title
> >
> > Click on "Show More Options"
> >
> > Enter Shaw Alphabet as Keywords
> >
> > Click on "Begin Search"
> >
> > Take your choice of available books
> >
> >
> > ----- Originala Mesagxo -----
> > De: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
> > Al: <shavian@...>
> > Sendita: Merkredon, 21an de julio 2004, 7:28 ptm
> > Temo: Re: [shavian] God, NASA, and didn't
> >
> > > Don't we all wish we had a copy of Androlocles!
> I wish I did, but I
> > > can't find any, even online.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
> --Lorne's Mom (from Angel)
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
>
http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
>


=====
Robert McBroom Woodstock NY"Begin the morning by saying to yourself, I shall meet with the busybody, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful, envious, unsocial. All these things happened to them by reason of their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I who have seen the nature of the good, that it is beautiful, and of the bad, that it is ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to mine, and participates in the same intelligence, and the same portion of divinity."- Marcus Aureliius



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Great reply Ethan! However you can see how mis-conceptions of
phonetic/phonemic alphabets keep people from pursuing them. Here's to
carrying the torch.

--Star

--- Ethan <ethanl@...> wrote:

> paul vandenbrink wrote:
> > I read the following review of the Shaw Alphabet, and I have a
> > number of quibbles about his analysis of the Shaw Alphabet, but I
> > will let the other comment first.
> >
> Do I qualify as "other"?
>
> > Shaw Phonetic Alphabet
>
> Not phonetic, phonemic.
>
> >
> > There are many reasons that Kingsley Read's alphabet would be
> better
> > than our current one. Our alphabet has a fixed number of 26
> letters.
> > These letters often represent more than one sound, causing numerous
>
> > spelling problems. The Shavian Alphabet has 40 letters
>
> 48 letters...
>
> > and each
> > letter has its own sound. This means that words could be spelled
> the
> > same way that they are said. Other alphabets besides the Roman one
> > could also be replaced by the Shavian Alphabet. New letters could
> be
> > added to represent sounds not found in the English language.
>
> Not exactly what Shaw had in mind, also irrelevant when discussing
> the
> merits of Shavian over TO.
> > Shavian
> > is also more constant than our current script. There are no capital
>
> > letters or cursive writing styles; the letters are always the same.
>
> > For proper nouns, a dot is placed above letters that would be
> > capitalized.
>
> The namer dot is placed *in front* of the letter, not above it.
>
> > The Shavian Alphabet would also be better than using
> > English to write phonetically. "wen V rFt TiNZ fOnetaklI VziN QD
> > kDant Alfabet, fP sum rEZun pIpal TiNk it is ileJabal n strEnJ".
>
> Actually, it's not English, but Latin or "traditional" orthography
> (hereafter TO) which he calls English. It's not a language but an
> alphabet.
>
> >
> > The Shavian characters are new and words written in them would not
> > seem strange once a person learned the alphabet. There would be no
> > confusion caused by changing the spelling of preexisting words.
> >
> > Despite these advantages, there have been few efforts to encourage
> > the use of the Shavian Alphabet. This is due to many of the same
> > reasons that the Deseret Alphabet disappeared.
>
> Last I knew, Deseret had not disappeared, but can still be found in
> its
> entirety on the internet. The Deseret section of Unicode can be
> found
> just ahead of the Shavian section.
>
> > For the Shavian
> > Alphabet to replace English, when it was first developed an
> > unimaginable amount of time and money would have been needed to
> > translate and print all current English books.
>
> The goal of Shavian has never been to replace English, but to spell
> it!
> Assuming, though, that the author meant TO rather than English, the
>
> goal has always been to have Shavian accepted as an alternative to
> TO,
> rather than to replace it. There will always be a place for TO.
>
> > In our day of word processors, virtual or hyper-text and spell
> > checkers it is possible, but it would be exceedingly difficult to
> > justify an effort of this kind to the current readers of English.
>
> No such effort is needed.
>
> >
> > Another reason it has never caught on was that its main push was by
>
> > a dead man.
>
> If that were the case, it never would have happened. It takes
> interested parties to pull something like this off, and there were
> quite
> a few people truely interested in it after GBS died.
>
> > After the Shaw Alphabet was invented and Androcles and
> > the Lion was printed in it, George Bernard Shaw's will was
> > fulfilled. Since then no one else was willing to take up the cause,
>
> > the Shavian alphabet effectively died.
>
> What then of the Shaw-Script Quarterly? That was published after
> Androcles, wasn't it? And what of all the people since who have
> "taken
> up the cause?"
>
> --
> B7p?0p?p?)p?/ - Ethan
> My name in Shavian and Latin text
>


=====
Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
--Lorne's Mom (from Angel)




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Sweet... but there is no copy here in *dumb as a* Bean Town, AKA
Johnson City. I'll have to look in the libraries of the places I visit
most often.

have fun!
--Star

--- robert McBroom <mcbroom1946@...> wrote:

> No money? No problem.
>
> I first stumbled on to Androcles in an Alabama library
> six years ago.
>
> Later, at home in the Hudson Valley I found the
> regional library system had as least 8 copies - all in
> mint condittion, strangely enough.
>
> By taking scans of pages, I now boast my own copy,
> without paying a cent. And Penguin Books has not sent
> any goons to my door either.
>
> --- Star Raven <celestraof12worlds@...> wrote:
>
> > There is a slight problem... they usually want money
> > for their books,
> > and I have none to spare at the moment. I'll
> > remember that though,
> > thanks.
> >
> > --Star
> >
> > --- "Ph. D." <phild@...> wrote:
> > > Go to http://www.bookfinder.com
> > >
> > > Put in Shaw as Author
> > >
> > > Put in Androcles as Title
> > >
> > > Click on "Show More Options"
> > >
> > > Enter Shaw Alphabet as Keywords
> > >
> > > Click on "Begin Search"
> > >
> > > Take your choice of available books
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Originala Mesagxo -----
> > > De: "Star Raven" <celestraof12worlds@...>
> > > Al: <shavian@...>
> > > Sendita: Merkredon, 21an de julio 2004, 7:28 ptm
> > > Temo: Re: [shavian] God, NASA, and didn't
> > >
> > > > Don't we all wish we had a copy of Androlocles!
> > I wish I did, but I
> > > > can't find any, even online.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
> > --Lorne's Mom (from Angel)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Vote for the stars of Yahoo!'s next ad campaign!
> >
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yahoo/votelifeengine/
> >
>
>
> =====
> Robert McBroom Woodstock NY"Begin the morning by saying to yourself,
> I shall meet with the busybody, the ungrateful, arrogant, deceitful,
> envious, unsocial. All these things happened to them by reason of
> their ignorance of what is good and evil. But I who have seen the
> nature of the good, that it is beautiful, and of the bad, that it is
> ugly, and the nature of him who does wrong, that it is akin to mine,
> and participates in the same intelligence, and the same portion of
> divinity."- Marcus Aureliius
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com
>


=====
Numfar! Do the Dance of Joy!
--Lorne's Mom (from Angel)



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I - for one - am looking forward to your frequncy analysis. How is it coming?
--

- In shavian@..., "Hugh Birkenhead" <mixsynth@f...> wrote:
> Urrr... d'oh...
>
> I've just devised one based upon Dvorak, putting all the vowels along the
> left side (?!?) Took weeks to do as well! Used a 120,000 character
frequency
> analysis.
>
> I hadn't announced its creation yet. I was hoping to find a picture of the
> Shavian typewriter keyboard first to see how my layout compared with it!
>
> Anyway I'll check out yours and see how it is seeing as you posted first...
>
> Hugh B
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "feral_primate" <feral_primate@y...>
> To: <shavian@...>
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 5:15 AM
> Subject: [shavian] Re: New Keyboard Layouts Uploaded
>
>
> > --- In shavian@..., "feral_primate" <feral_primate@y...>
> > wrote:
> >> I have devised a keyboard layout for Shavian that I believe is
> > more
> >> efficient than the current QWERTY-based layout. Mine is based on
> >> Dvorak, but many punctuation keys have been replaced by Shavian
> >> letters and the entire left side of the keyboard is composed of
> >> vowels. The arrangement of these vowels was based on some phoneme
> >> frequency charts I found, putting the most frequent phonemes in
> >> reach. Having had much experience with Dvorak, I found this layout
> >> easy to pick up, although I would like feedback from others
> >> regarding this layout.
> >>
> >> It is available in two formats: one for viewing the majority of
> >> current Shavian fonts that just replace ASCII letters with Shavian
> >> letters and one that is compatible with Unicode fonts that have
> >> Shavian letters at the proper code points.
> >
> > I forgot to add, they are in the "datafiles" folder in the Files
> > section, in a file called shavorak.zip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >



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